Let's see Tournament Modified or Competition reels

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Re: Let's see Tournament Modified or Competition reels

Post by kyreels »

I see that Cliff Wyatt (marked on John's BF Meek) was a famous fly rod maker and tournament caster as written up on Dr. Todd's classicflyrodforum.com. That tells me that the $65 mod was probably the price he charged. A neat piece of history if there ever was one.

I think there is some truth to the "coolness" factor of the tri-knob handles, but I would characterize it more as a "trendy" factor, or if you prefer, something where people do what others do because it is available and the others are successful. Kind of like baseball players who cork bats or hollow out the tops. I love a good argument (I tell my wife it is a discussion), so here are some more thoughts.

Here is a Shakespeare 1740 HE with a very large Jeffrey tri-handle. The reel is freespool. It came from an active ACA caster. I can see the value of this handle, which is not in the freespool cast, but in the ease of retrieval using the handles which I tested and believe to be superior in feel to the 2-knobed factory version.



With the tiny 3 handle knobs such as the ones we see on the older Meek reels, I think the value is in limiting the inertia on the cast, since most of those reels are not freespool. I can see no value in the retrieval on the smaller versions.

It has been pointed out frequently that in tournament casting, you want the spool to be low inertia, that is, you don't want the spool to outrun the line. On most of the Kentucky reels without aluminum or wood spools, they spin fast and forever. So adding an aluminum spool and a tiny handle would have resulted in a more desirable state where the weight and leader pulled the line off the spool with less (or no) overrun.

So my conclusion is, tiny handle, big cast, except on freespool reels, where it is big handle, fast retrieve. But just my thoughts, no expertise here.
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Re: Let's see Tournament Modified or Competition reels

Post by Midway Tommy D »

Ed's spinner seems a little bit lonely so here's an ABU made tournament reel from approximately 1964. The US distributed version of the well known ABU 444 was called the ABU Garcia. This particular reel hasn't been modified in any way. It is exactly how it came from the ABU factory.

A couple of photos at different angles. The spools are magnesium and near impossible to find. The reel has a two pickup tree. The line pickup/roller guide positions are adjustable. The bail plate & tree can be cocked back out of the way just like a standard bail model.


Here are the inner workings of the tournament reel next to a standard bail type model. The photos were taken before the reels were cleaned and serviced and I think they both still had the original factory grease. :roll: The tournament reel is on the right. There are a couple of major differences inside on these two reels. The main gears are different, as are the main shafts. I'll show and explain the differences in the next photo. Also, you can see in the second photo that the main shaft of the tournament reel is longer to accommodate the two tiered spool.


This photo shows a comparison of the main parts and their major differences. At the bottom you can see the difference in the length of the main shafts. A very interesting attribute of the tournament reel is that it does not have a standard anti-reverse. The main gear on the right has teeth that are square on one side and slope on the back side so that when the anti-reverse is engaged the dog slides over the teeth. That's what gives the clicking sound when engaged, and when you try to reel backwards the dog wedges against the square side of the tooth. The gear on the left has teeth that are square on both sides. Also, close inspection of the two anti-reverse dogs show that the dog on the left has a block added to the side on the end. In tournament casting the slightest movement of the rotor while casting can make a huge difference in accuracy. The anti-reverse on an ABU tournament reel, when engaged, wedges the dog between the teeth on the main gear and locks the rotor so that it can not be turned either forward or backward. The rotor stays completely stationary as the line peels off the spool. Disengage the anti-reverse lever and the handle can be turned in either direction.


The two tiered magnesium spool is two piece and has an extension added to the release button. It is held together on the back side by four screws.


ABU never made their tournament reels available to the public. The ABU 444 and ABU Garcia are the exact same reel, save for the side plate/name. ABU produced 20-30 ABU 444 tournament reels for their European team casters. As of today there are only two known ABU Garcia tournament reels in existence. Fittingly, both are in the USA.
Love those Open Face Spinning Reels! (Especially ABU & ABU/Zebco)

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Re: Let's see Tournament Modified or Competition reels

Post by oc1 »

I can accept that there is something going on with the three knobs that I'm not imagining. That's the story of my life. I keep harkening back to the free spool reel with tiny handle. It could not influence casting but would influence retrieving.

I do not disparage tournament casters or their special expertise and understand that they were highly regarded. But I can't help but wonder if manufacturers (Shakespeare comes to mind) did not use "tournament" as a marketing ploy for us commoners.

Using a levelwind in a tournament reel seems crazy to me. If the caster was that desperate for drag it seems like they would have used a more controllable way of getting it.

I've seen some supposed tournament reels that would create drag where the spool contacts the tail plate bearing if the reel was rotated to the left but would be very hot and free when the reel was rotated to the right. The tail side journal was flattened at the end allowing the shoulder of the journal to contact the bushing .

I have a 1740 Tournament Free Spool model HE that came to me with a three-knob handle but the finish on the handle is not the high-chrome finish of the reel. An after-market addition? A frankenstein created by the ebay seller? There are no other signs of tinkering by the user.
-steve
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Re: Let's see Tournament Modified or Competition reels

Post by colby sorrells »

Thanks Matt, Tom and Steve. Great discussion. I would like to add we must remember just because we find a reel TODAY with a particular set-up does not mean it came from the "factory" that way. The "classic" era reels were all hand made with each one being unique down to having hand made individual screws that only worked in one place. These reels made before 1932 were used well into the 1960s. Each generation of advancement could be applied to the old "classic" era reels as the years went by, updating them to the current trend in tournaments. We just have to ask was the advancement actually available at the time the reel was originally made?

Thanks Tom for including your spinning reel discussion. After about 1957 spinning reels changed tournament casting.

Again, thanks for all the great discussions.

Let's keep it going folks. How about some more modified or competition tournament casting reel photos?

Colby
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Re: Let's see Tournament Modified or Competition reels

Post by colby sorrells »

Here's a chart I handed out at the ORCA National. It is not totally complete because I'm still waiting on a couple of interviews with tournament casters but it at least gives us a start.



Remember Skish reels had to include a levelwind.

Colby
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Re: Let's see Tournament Modified or Competition reels

Post by oc1 »

Sorry about the levelwind crack. I was thinking distance and forgot about the whole target casting side of things.
-steve
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Re: Let's see Tournament Modified or Competition reels

Post by kyreels »

Fantastic Abu Tournament reel, always thought I want to own one of the super long spindle spinning reels. Bill Burke (d) made the spools for the ICF casters.

I attended the 2016 ACA National tournament as a spectator, and have set up duplicate casting rigs to some of the greats. All of them are level wind. For the antique casting events in our club, many are using the non-level wind. For the distance casting events, it is more common to see no level-wind, and of course for the unlimited category with spider line and ultra-narrow spools, no level wind is applicable.

Some of the best tournament reel art was in the Heddon and Jack Welch reels made for tournament casters. Would like to see and know more about them. I have owned them in the past, but they always go to make room for the Kentucky stuff. I can't own them all (but I am working overtime to try).

The recent Heddon 3-35 with aluminum ultra-narrow spool sold at the Nov 5, 2017 auction is a great example of the spider line ultra distance reels. https://live.langsauction.com/lots/view ... sting-reel
I hope an ORCA member got it, I made a weak attempt at least.
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Re: Let's see Tournament Modified or Competition reels

Post by Mike N »

Here are a pair of tournament casting reels I picked up a few years ago on a Florida visit to the home of the one and only Ron G. One is a modified Talbot and the other is an unmarked mystery maker, which is always a fav of mine. Note the butterfly foot on the unmarked reel.




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Re: Let's see Tournament Modified or Competition reels

Post by Midway Tommy D »

Bill Burke (d) made the spools for the ICF casters.
Bill was an extremely nice individual! He didn't know me from Adam, and though he didn't make it, Bill took the time to find me that extra two tiered ABU spool. We had many nice conversations, what a nice man!
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Re: Let's see Tournament Modified or Competition reels

Post by Mike N »

kyreels wrote:
The recent Heddon 3-35 with aluminum ultra-narrow spool sold at the Nov 5, 2017 auction is a great example of the spider line ultra distance reels. https://live.langsauction.com/lots/view ... sting-reel
I hope an ORCA member got it, I made a weak attempt at least.
This +1
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Re: Let's see Tournament Modified or Competition reels

Post by colby sorrells »

Thanks for posting Mike. Wonderful reels. Keep Em coming folks.

Colby
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Re: Let's see Tournament Modified or Competition reels

Post by RandyAnderson »

In reply to Mike N.'s post about the Heddon reel that just sold on Lang's, does anyone know who did the
fantastic job of modifying the reel. An old "Sage" and fellow Talbot reel collector in Kansas City has a Talbot reel modified by what appears to be the same machinist. The person who did the work on Warren's reel and the reel just sold is a master. The spool fillers on these reels is excellent. Congratulations to the new owner.
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Re: Let's see Tournament Modified or Competition reels

Post by kyreels »

I don't know if anyone knows for sure, but that Heddon reel generally was attributed to Jack Welch from the talk about it. I saw the Talbot reel if that was the one at the National. What are the key elements that lead you to the conclusion over who did them?

The earlier modified reels seem to be wooden spools, and the later ones seem to be the machined aluminum. There is speculation that the advent of the newer lathes (not computer lathes, but smaller precision lathes) and the post WWII machinist talent led to a lot of better work. But I recall that some machinists (Tony Dillender in Lexington) preferred the older lathes for some tasks. So I don't know.

I rely on Colby to find all my dated evidence, and lately he has been slacking.
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Re: Let's see Tournament Modified or Competition reels

Post by colby sorrells »

Matt,
I've been working on the opposite end of the discussion - trying to document when the integral reel/rod handle competition reels originated instead of the earlier stuff.

Just as a note back to our small handle discussion, I re-checked all of the period photographs I could find in magazines and books, and didn't see even one small handle. There were reels with modified spools - some were wood, some were metal, but all of these reels included a "regular" or large size handle.

I may have some fun information on the integral competition reels but I need to confirm with another interview which can't take place until the middle of December. I've got a few other leads I need to run down also.

How about some more photos of modified or competition reels folks. There were many more makers than the few we've posted so far.

Keepin' It Fun!

Colby
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Re: Let's see Tournament Modified or Competition reels

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Just as a fun note to this discussion, many of the casters including Jon "Buddy" Tarantino , felt like having an equipment advantage over the other casters was not the way to go. It has been reported to me that Tarantino would make his last cast and leave the line and casting weight where they ended up. The meaning was the next caster was welcomed to retrieve the line and use his, Tarantino's, equipment if they wanted to.

I'm glad to note that this sentiment continues today at the ORCA National where several of the casters were willing to "share" their casting tackle with others that didn't have tackle on hand. Keeps the whole thing fun.

Colby
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Re: Let's see Tournament Modified or Competition reels

Post by Mike N »

Colby - here is a nice early Shakespeare on eBay with the small 2-grasp handle. I’ve not seen that marbelized grasp before.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/122843295577?r ... noapp=true
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Re: Let's see Tournament Modified or Competition reels

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Mike N wrote:Colby - here is a nice early Shakespeare on eBay with the small 2-grasp handle. I’ve not seen that marbelized grasp before.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/122843295577?r ... noapp=true
I ended up getting this reel, apparently someone else also valued it highly, because they bid it up to my max. I was not previously aware of this model Shakespeare Tournament 1744. I have the reel that I think is the predecessor to this (just marked "Tournament", thought it was 1927), and thought that this would be later than that reel, but wondering if anyone knows which reel might be earlier. Any catalog dateline for these?
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Re: Let's see Tournament Modified or Competition reels

Post by Mike N »

Matt-- congrats because it is a really nice reel.

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Re: Let's see Tournament Modified or Competition reels

Post by wrong99 »

I don't show the No.1744 in my 1926 or 1927 catalogs. The first catalog I see it listed in is the 1930 edition, although I don't have either of the 1928 or 1929 catalogs. In the 1930 catalog, it's called the "New Tournament Free-Spool Reel". By 1937, it's gone from catalogs. The foot (Model 26) to your reel is a mystery. Perhaps from a different, earlier model?
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Re: Let's see Tournament Modified or Competition reels

Post by kyreels »

Thanks everyone. It is definitely an interesting reel. Lots of questions to be answered. When was it made? Is it possible that the handle came from the factory, since it has the swirl grips that seem to be Shakespeare? Is it actually 1926, which would make it earlier than the "Tournament"? Or did some caster just hack the whole thing together? If so, is there another 1744 example? Time will tell I guess.
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Re: Let's see Tournament Modified or Competition reels

Post by colby sorrells »

The Agentis book shows the 1744 Special Tournament circa 20's and the 1744 HK 7/26/30 as the year manufactured.

Some of our very knowledgeable Shakespeare collectors may have other information, but the years 1929-1931 are not well documented. Mark gives us good information on the 1930 catalog. By 1937 as he mentions it is gone and Shakespeare's free spool technology had moved on by that time, making it obsolete. The start of the great depression and I'm sure Shakespeare was just trying to hang on. Shakespeare was also going through a change in the way they marked the model years at this time. I've seen reels marked 1931 and others marked HK. Did Shakespeare change their system mid year? It is certainly possible.

Is it earlier than the 1926? I am very doubtful because we have a time table about when casting tournaments first allowed free spool reels.

Matt, it is certainly a good reel. Now the question of that little handle? I don't know if we will ever get to the end of that discussion. I have some information I'll be sharing in the future but I've got a couple of loose ends I need to finish with first. All fun stuff. Great addition to your collection.


Always remember what our old Friend Fred Kerr said. Shakespeare was in business to make money.
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Re: Let's see Tournament Modified or Competition reels

Post by Mike N »

We might as well show everyone the great reel we are talking about that Matt bought. Those marbelized grasps are really cool.


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Re: Let's see Tournament Modified or Competition reels

Post by oc1 »

One of mine is marked "Model 1924" and "60 YDS" on the foot and there is no model number marked on the tail plate. It came to me with a normal size counter balanced handle with Ivoroid knob.

Image

Another is marked "Model 1926" and "100 YDS" on the foot but the '26' has been stricken through. The strike through is sharp and appears to have been done at the factory. This reel is marked "Model 31" on the tail plate. It came to me with the tiny double handle and Ivoroid knobs.

Image

Image

These were selling for about a hundred bucks last spring. Every time one appears at the auction the price goes up.
-steve
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Re: Let's see Tournament Modified or Competition reels

Post by colby sorrells »

Here's three casting tournament reels I saw today.

First up is a Langley Target with small handle. This reel also has a cork covered arbor.

Next is a Shakespeare 1740 modified by Fort Worth Texas caster Art Tuck. Tucks tackle shop was the place to go in north Texas for your tournament casting needs including rod blanks. Tuck and his wife regularly participated in casting tournaments.

The RuLac was a favorite for tournament use because the caster could easily feel the line and the half bail was easily removed.

How about it. Anyone else got modified or competition tournament casting reels?

Keepin' It Fun!

Colby
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Re: Let's see Tournament Modified or Competition reels

Post by kyreels »

Love the Tuck's Tackle 1740.
The earlier model of the 1744 I understand is known as the 22143 Model 1924 (aluminum body) and according to Colby's national presentation dates to 1927. Here are the markings for my example:


What I surmise, is the timeline of these reels roughly follows:
Tournament Model 1924
1743 Model 1926 (joe klaus example posted recently)
1744 Model 1926
1744 Model 1931
1744 Model HS (never seen it, just saying it is possible)
1740 Model HE - pretty common, circa 1936
1740 Model xx - don't know all the possible years
1740 Model FK - last model I have, circa 1951

Any more thoughts on what is possible last date on this series?
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