British or American? bump-out top hat on rear plate

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Mike N
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Re: British or American? bump-out top hat on rear plate

Post by Mike N »

Steve wrote:
the exact reel
What are we missing here?
I agree that it is tough to compare a drawing with a photo, but to the extent the drawing is accurate I see 3 possible differences:

1. The aforementioned screws.
2. A curved metal handle (very British) vs a straight tapered handle on the eBay reel.
3. The drawing shows an arch “cutout” where the foot attaches to the bottom bracket while the photos of the eBay reel are not real clear on that.

By the way, the reel just sold for a very reasonable $260.

Thanks to everyone for continuing a long overdue discussion on recognizing British v American reels. Would love to hear from a few of our friends across the pond.

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Re: British or American? bump-out top hat on rear plate

Post by Paul M »

Mike N wrote:....Would love to hear from a few of our friends across the pond.

Mike N
I checked with one of my British reel collector contacts. A fellow by the name of Paul Adams runs a small Facebook Group called Vintage Fishing Tackle Collecting and History Group. Here are his observations:
Hi Paul, I agree with you in that the traits shown are more US, the grasp, the two screws on the check cover, not only was the Brit reels more often 3 screws the screws are iron not brass, the yardage number stamped into the foot is also very US.... most Heaton crankwinds the crank is often curved (serpentine) rather than straight like that reel.. another thing also (not all reels) the post screws are in brass rather than iron... having raised screw heads on the front side is not always the best option as when the crank wears the handle can be prone to hitting the screw heads which is why a lot of Brit reels have male threads that go into the plate from the back, but the other side on the reel reel back have either female ends with screws or male again but with round locking nuts, on the front if screws are used they countersink them.
Problem that nobody mentions also when dealing with wholesale makers is that customers could also have whatever the hell they wanted to a certain extent as long as they was paying for it, of all the other pics [and] catalogue scans shown on that [ORCA] thread the only one that looks identical in all areas of construction was the H. Willsher, NY marked one.
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Re: British or American? bump-out top hat on rear plate

Post by Mike N »

Thanks, Paul, for the US to Canada to Britain diplomacy. No one else mentioned the yardage marker on the foot, nor brass vs iron screws as US characteristics.

With our British friend voting with the Yanks, I tally the votes for the eBay reel origins (I put Ron G down for British since that’s the reel he posted) as:

American made.... 5
British made........ 4

PS congrats to John E for posting the Willshire reel.

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Re: British or American? bump-out top hat on rear plate

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Mike N wrote: No one else mentioned the yardage marker on the foot...
Not a yardage marker.

Its the number 6.

Image

American reel maker's, such as vom Hofe (nothing implied here) often marked their reels with size markings such as - 1, 2, 3, 3-1/2, 4, 5, 6 and 7 on the foot.

In the case of fly reels and many bait casting reels as well, the larger the number the smaller the reel.

The reel in question is absativley, posilutely American. I agree with Paul Adams (thank you Paul M.) wholeheartedly.

...and I'll go one step further ...it was most likely made in NY.

Another clue ....

Image

Note the line in the drawing. Good luck ever finding that on an American made reel. On English reels it is often seen.

Why?

I'm not sure ...possibly decorative, possibly to mark the middle of the rim to drill for the pillar.

Whatever the reason, just like steel screws, riveted feet and crescent cranks ...its got England written all over it.

And while we are casting doubt on catalog drawings ...

Image

Why is there no pillar pin showing at the blue arrow and why is there no pillar at the red arrow ???

Oopppssss !

Well, we can't blame Photoshop ...over a century too soon.

Dean.
Last edited by reelsmith. on Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: British or American? bump-out top hat on rear plate

Post by Mike N »

Paul M wrote:The only reels of this sort I have seen with model/size numbers on the foot would be American. .
In looking back, Paul did mention earlier that the stamped reel size on the underside of the foot is an American DNA strand.

Kudos.

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Re: British or American? bump-out top hat on rear plate

Post by Mike N »

I just picked up this rear tophat on eBay this evening for $38. Based on the criteria above— 3 rear screws; bone grasp; no number on foot bottom, I feel pretty confident it is British-made. Thanks.

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Re: British or American? bump-out top hat on rear plate

Post by Ray Hencken »

I agree with Dean, 2 screws holding the cover of the raised check housing = American.
Also, in my experience, many if not all of the early British reels used iron or steel screws to secure the reel's plates to the pillars and an iron screw or pin to secure the knob to the crank.
Here is a picture of six reels, five of which have raised check housings. 4 have pins in the front and screws in the back and 1 has screws in the front and pins in the back. I believe them to all be American made.
Left to right - J.F.Marsters Brooklyn, NY, J.C.Conroy Co. NY, unmarked, Bradford &
Anthony Boston, unmarked (identical to the marked Conroy), Bradford Boston.
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Image
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Re: British or American? bump-out top hat on rear plate

Post by RonG »

Mike,

You scored me wrong. The subject reel is definitely AMERICAN. I posted the photos of the British reel to show the OBVIOUS differences.
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Re: British or American? bump-out top hat on rear plate

Post by Mike N »

RonG wrote:Mike,

You scored me wrong. The subject reel is definitely AMERICAN. I posted the photos of the British reel to show the OBVIOUS differences.
Amended vote tally (always a problem with those Florida ballots, lol):

American 6
British 3
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Re: British or American? bump-out top hat on rear plate

Post by BILL HOERTER »

The unmarked Raised Check Plate Reel is back on EBAY. The buyer returned the reel.

I have been following this early reel style & the majority of them have been stamped Conroy. The small bit of information that I have found on this style reel is that it was first made in England & was not well accepted by the British Anglers & then the American Makers started making them & they were better accepted by the American Anglers. This is an early American Reel style that I would like to add to the ORCA Early Reel Style List. Since it was a fly reel don't we have a fly reel collector among us that has done some research or knows enough to put something together for us? Thanks - Bill
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Re: British or American? bump-out top hat on rear plate

Post by BILL HOERTER »

Correction: Raised Check Plate Not Raised Click Plate Sorry - Bill
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Re: British or American? bump-out top hat on rear plate

Post by Mike N »

BILL HOERTER wrote:Correction: Raised Check Plate Not Raised Click Plate Sorry - Bill
Bill:
What I call in the title thread a “bump out tophat,” you and a few other knowledgeable reel collectors call a “raised check plate.”

Can anyone tell me the origin of the term “raised check plate?” I assume it’s how the feature was described in a catalog, but the word “check” is curious.

Thanks

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Re: British or American? bump-out top hat on rear plate

Post by Jason »

reelsmith. wrote:Note the line in the drawing. Good luck ever finding that on an American made reel.

I can think of a couple American reels that have the line intersecting the pillars. But you're right, usually it is a British trait.

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Re: British or American? bump-out top hat on rear plate

Post by BILL HOERTER »

Mike - As I understand the word check is used because the reel design of the bump out or top hat is on the back plate & it is suppose to allow easy checking on the clicker & also more space for a more substantial clicker. This is a fly reel that is designed to give a strong click & easy access to keep it strong & working. That is why I sometime call it a" Raised Check Click Plate Reel". Thanks - Bill
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Re: British or American? bump-out top hat on rear plate

Post by reelsmith. »

Jason wrote:
reelsmith. wrote:Note the line in the drawing. Good luck ever finding that on an American made reel.
I can think of a couple American reels that have the line intersecting the pillars. But you're right, usually it is a British trait.
Excellent sleuthing !

As Ron says on his site: His (Snyder) reels resemble in some ways the early British reels available at the time.

Jason, what others do you know of that I missed ...or forgot about. Thanks.

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Re: British or American? bump-out top hat on rear plate

Post by Ray Hencken »

BILL HOERTER wrote:Mike - As I understand the word check is used because the reel design of the bump out or top hat is on the back plate & it is suppose to allow easy checking on the clicker & also more space for a more substantial clicker. This is a fly reel that is designed to give a strong click & easy access to keep it strong & working. That is why I sometime call it a" Raised Check Click Plate Reel". Thanks - Bill
I believe that we Americans refer to the pawl which engages the gear as a click while the Brits refer to it as a check.
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Re: British or American? bump-out top hat on rear plate

Post by Steve »

...the word check is used because...
our friends across the Pond coined the term to refer to what we call a "click." The device "checked" the outflow of line. The term was used here until folks like Henshall started using the term "click reel" instead. Here's an example:
There are three kinds of winches—check, multipliers, and plain; the multiplying winch is apt soon to get out of order, unless carefully and constantly oiled, and is otherwise the least efficient and most expensive of the three. I would recommend young anglers at first to purchase a plain and strong winch, which will answer every purpose, and be much less expensive. A check winch is, however, the best.
--How to Hunt and Fish, Frank Tousey, Publ. N.Y., 1882, pg. 41

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Re: British or American? bump-out top hat on rear plate

Post by BILL HOERTER »

Thanks Ray & Steve for answering Mike's question I believe correctly. Do you agree with my comments on why this reel was designed with the bump out or top hat feature? Another question: Do we have enough information on this reel to say it is an early American Reel Style & if so would you be willing to put something together for our ORCA Early American Reel Styles list? Thanks - Bill
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Re: British or American? bump-out top hat on rear plate

Post by Mike N »

Very insightful conversation by some real experts. Gracias.

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Re: British or American? bump-out top hat on rear plate

Post by Jason »

If it has screws, springs or gears made of rusty steel, its probably British.

Dean,
I seem to recall seeing a reel made by Mooney in Rhode Island that had those lines intersecting the pillars. Other than that, I cant think of any signed reels. I'm mostly thinking of some early brass reels that look more American than British but have some British traits.

Like this one with its fancy milled foot bridge, line intersecting the pillars, and riveted foot. Click on the images to enlarge.



and a couple more..


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Re: British or American? bump-out top hat on rear plate

Post by Steve »

...the bump out or top hat is on the back plate & it is suppose to allow easy checking on the clicker & also more space for a more substantial clicker...Do you agree with my comments on why this reel was designed with the bump out or top hat feature?
IMHO, the raised housing made things more convenient and cheaper. I've been making little 2-inch check reels for awhile, and Lord Fauntleroy asks me for a 3" reel. Simple enough, I suppose, but do I have to make a check that's 50% bigger (and probably a lot louder)? Nah, I'll use the same size check :idea: and just cover it with a 2-inch cap. (I already have the parts and can use a lot less brass.)

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Re: British or American? bump-out top hat on rear plate

Post by Steve »

Just for the record, a British raised check housing or bump-out top hat reel, 1881.

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Re: British or American? bump-out top hat on rear plate

Post by Ron Mc »

Steve, what's the source of the drawing? thanks in advance
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Re: British or American? bump-out top hat on rear plate

Post by Paul M »

I recently saw a picture of a similar reel with the thread for the check housing along perimeter of the side plate, thus the check housing is the full size of the side plate, not just a speed bump. The owner believes the unmarked reel is British.
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Re: British or American? bump-out top hat on rear plate

Post by Steve »

source of the drawing
The Angler's Complete Guide and Companion, George Little. London: self-published, 1881, pg. 8. It's online somewhere.
similar reel
You mean like this?

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