Al Foss 3-25 Easy Cast & Heddon ....
Al Foss 3-25 Easy Cast & Heddon ....
Ok folks. I am working on laying out Kevin Virden's biography of Al Foss. I'd like opinions on who you think made the 3-25 reel. Almost everyone I've asked has said Heddon ... is this the consensus, and if so, what evidence do you point to? If you think it's someone else, what evidence do you have for that assertion? Finally, does anyone have any evidence Foss made them himself (very doubtful but who knows).
Yes, I've searched past threads.
Let me know your opinion!!!
-- Dr. Todd
Yes, I've searched past threads.
Let me know your opinion!!!
-- Dr. Todd
- Ron Mc
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Re: Al Foss 3-25 Easy Cast & Heddon ....
According to Ron G, Jack Welch had a patent on the 3-25
https://luresnreels.com/heddon.html
Also learned from Ron's site that W. Carter made the NLW Heddons - I always thought Jack Welch made those, too.
https://luresnreels.com/heddon.html
Also learned from Ron's site that W. Carter made the NLW Heddons - I always thought Jack Welch made those, too.
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Re: Al Foss 3-25 Easy Cast & Heddon ....
Carter designed the first series of Heddon NLW casting reels, from 1918-1919. Jack Welch designed the later series that sold throughout the 1920's.
Mark
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Re: Al Foss 3-25 Easy Cast & Heddon ....
I'd like to see both reels, side by side, disassembled so we can see any internal differences. There are so many differences apparent from the outside. And why would Heddon, if they were the maker and supplier, assign the same model number (#3-25) used on one of their regular production reels?
Mark
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Re: Al Foss 3-25 Easy Cast & Heddon ....
DrTodd and i did some dancing on this issue yesterday and although i didn't have a 3-25 to unzip, the 3-15 was a closer match on the outside at least. The lesson learned is that there are a lot of internal differences that don't rule out Heddon, but exclude any notion they could have cobbled the Foss together from existing parts. For example, i don't understand why they would change methods/tooling to change the clicker base when function was exactly the same between the 3-15 and Foss reels... comparisons below:
here's the Foss:
comparison with 3-15 on the right:
3-15:
clicker on the Foss:
Clicker on the 3-15
overall comparison on exterior..Foss, 3-15, Horton-Meek #3:
here's the Foss:
comparison with 3-15 on the right:
3-15:
clicker on the Foss:
Clicker on the 3-15
overall comparison on exterior..Foss, 3-15, Horton-Meek #3:
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Re: Al Foss 3-25 Easy Cast & Heddon ....
Based on this 1917 ad, we know William Carter was making reels at the Heddon factory. Heddon was making the 3-15 and 3-35 when the Al-Foss 3-25 was introduced in 1925. By the way, is it a coincidence the Heddon reels and Al Foss reels are marked similarly (i.e. 3-25)?
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Re: Al Foss 3-25 Easy Cast & Heddon ....
Is that the page you meant to post, Ron? This one shows early double digit reels. Did you mean 3-25 or 3-35 in the post?
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Re: Al Foss 3-25 Easy Cast & Heddon ....
Carter was making reels at Heddon starting in 1917.
This means Heddon had the manufacturing capability.
Carter/Welch were making 3-35 at Heddon starting in 1921.
They then started making the 3-15 so they were up and running.
Heddon was probably making 3-25 for Foss in 1925.
We weren’t there, so we don’t know for sure.
This means Heddon had the manufacturing capability.
Carter/Welch were making 3-35 at Heddon starting in 1921.
They then started making the 3-15 so they were up and running.
Heddon was probably making 3-25 for Foss in 1925.
We weren’t there, so we don’t know for sure.
Last edited by RonG on Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Al Foss 3-25 Easy Cast & Heddon ....
Think about it. If Heddon made the No.3-25 for Al Foss, would they even allow for that "coincidence" to happen (stamping a very similar trade reel with the same model number of one of their current largest-selling models)? That would be a very reckless and lame decision, IMO. On another note, none of the Welch-designed reels that Heddon sold throughout the 1920's were ever assigned a patent, that I know of (although I read in HEDDON LEGACY that Welch received a patent for the 3-25). For over ten years all the models, including the No.3-25, were just stamped "PAT'S APPL'D FOR". That could have left the door open for someone to design a similar model for Foss, without any patent (or model trade mark) infringement.
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Re: Al Foss 3-25 Easy Cast & Heddon ....
If you go to the bottom of my web page for Heddon reels, you can see all 9 of Welch’s reel patents. As everyone knows, Welch also got a lot of lure patents like the Gamefisher and Lunt Frog.
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Re: Al Foss 3-25 Easy Cast & Heddon ....
If you go to the bottom of my web page for Heddon reels, you can see all 9 of Welch’s reel patents. As everyone knows, Welch also got a lot of lure patents like the Gamefisher and Luny Frog.
Ron Gast
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Re: Al Foss 3-25 Easy Cast & Heddon ....
Thank you, Ron.
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Re: Al Foss 3-25 Easy Cast & Heddon ....
Sorry to further muddy the waters here, but that handle screw kept bugging me - I initially couldn't remember where I've seen them before, then it dawned on me - high grade Montague reels. Now I understand that these handle screws can be easily switched out, but the vast majority of Foss reels I've seen have that same conical shaped handle screw just as the handle screws on most high grade Monty's. Also, check out the model numbering from this Foss ad:
...and then from this marked Montague reel - the model numbers are close enough to be a possibility, at least IMO.
...and then from this marked Montague reel - the model numbers are close enough to be a possibility, at least IMO.
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Re: Al Foss 3-25 Easy Cast & Heddon ....
that looks like a field-repaired spring on the 3-15john elder wrote:DrTodd and i did some dancing on this issue yesterday and although i didn't have a 3-25 to unzip, the 3-15 was a closer match on the outside at least. The lesson learned is that there are a lot of internal differences that don't rule out Heddon, but exclude any notion they could have cobbled the Foss together from existing parts. For example, i don't understand why they would change methods/tooling to change the clicker base when function was exactly the same between the 3-15 and Foss reels... comparisons below:
...
clicker on the Foss:
Clicker on the 3-15
...
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Re: Al Foss 3-25 Easy Cast & Heddon ....
You' ve missed the point, Ron. I wasn't talking about the wire, which may or may not be repaired (not me)...it's the difference in the base holding the spring I was pointing out. Would seem to make little sense to change that if you already had a drawer full of the Heddon version, ready to carry out that function and why the change in orientation of the spring.
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Re: Al Foss 3-25 Easy Cast & Heddon ....
but you may also have a drawer full of two different parts form different sources (even two different machinists).
I'm also not so sure the parts are actually that different - I believe the field repaired boss has the same slot, filled with excess solder/slag.
I'm also not so sure the parts are actually that different - I believe the field repaired boss has the same slot, filled with excess solder/slag.
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Re: Al Foss 3-25 Easy Cast & Heddon ....
Based on the evidence in this posting, it seems to me that you cannot conclude for sure that Heddon made the Foss Easy Cast 3-25. I would conclude that Montague is more likely, but no proof there either.
I don't think the patents are any help. Welch had many reel patents, and Al Foss had three reel patents related to spool overrun. None seem to directly apply to the 3-25.
Maybe Heddon trademarked the 3-35 because they were ticked off about the use of the 3-25 mark.
Maybe more reels need to be viewed, but I have to agree they are not similar enough to be from the same manufacturer, even with diff workers.
My Foss 3-25 has the cone handle screw. If it would help, I would take it apart, but its a narrow spool model and was modified by Foss personally.
I don't think the patents are any help. Welch had many reel patents, and Al Foss had three reel patents related to spool overrun. None seem to directly apply to the 3-25.
Maybe Heddon trademarked the 3-35 because they were ticked off about the use of the 3-25 mark.
Maybe more reels need to be viewed, but I have to agree they are not similar enough to be from the same manufacturer, even with diff workers.
My Foss 3-25 has the cone handle screw. If it would help, I would take it apart, but its a narrow spool model and was modified by Foss personally.
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Re: Al Foss 3-25 Easy Cast & Heddon ....
I doubt that if Heddon did produce the reel for Foss, that they would be ticked off about the use of the 3-25 models. After all, they would have been the ones who stamped the model number on the reel.
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Re: Al Foss 3-25 Easy Cast & Heddon ....
exactly my point.
Matt Wickham
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Re: Al Foss 3-25 Easy Cast & Heddon ....
I see your concern, Ron... here is the clicker base from a 3-35 Heddon... this is a parts reel and the spring is broken off, but you can see it also has the "Heddon-type base.
Several other differences are apparent from the above pic comparisons. A major one is the use of three screws to tie the inner face plate to the pillars on the Foss reel whereas only one screw at 12 o'clock is used on the heddon. To me, this is a structural improvement although it requires a bit more work for breakdown.
I agree with Mark in that it makes no sense for Heddon to put out a competing product for another company that, arguably, is a better product than their own! I would suspect the involvement of an ex-Heddon employee as the only likely link here... happens all the time!
Several other differences are apparent from the above pic comparisons. A major one is the use of three screws to tie the inner face plate to the pillars on the Foss reel whereas only one screw at 12 o'clock is used on the heddon. To me, this is a structural improvement although it requires a bit more work for breakdown.
I agree with Mark in that it makes no sense for Heddon to put out a competing product for another company that, arguably, is a better product than their own! I would suspect the involvement of an ex-Heddon employee as the only likely link here... happens all the time!
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Re: Al Foss 3-25 Easy Cast & Heddon ....
Absolutely. I doubt anyone thought of non-compete clauses back in those days, especially since employment contracts were unheard of.I would suspect the involvement of an ex-Heddon employee as the only likely link here... happens all the time!
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Re: Al Foss 3-25 Easy Cast & Heddon ....
and of course a Talbot boss (in repair, before cutting the new phosphor bronze spring to final length) - I still don't see how these details are that different or even significant.
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Re: Al Foss 3-25 Easy Cast & Heddon ....
So that clears it up then Todd.
I wonder if the Heddon Museum (Lyons) folks would have any further info? They always seem to come up with info for anything I have asked.
I wonder if the Heddon Museum (Lyons) folks would have any further info? They always seem to come up with info for anything I have asked.
Matt Wickham
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