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Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:35 pm 
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Much less confused now, thanks to Bill Sonnet, and observations from Eric Jeska.
Eric noted the first catalog was really a brochure (1897 “Fine Points of a Reel”) that only featured one reel - the Style "C". Using the start of business date as 1897 (Catalog 1), Eric suggested Catalog 17 would have been 1913, as Harvey noted (and Mark suggested based on company name change). Catalog 20 would have been 1916, again as Harvey noted. Those dates sync with my observations based on found reels.

The 1909 and 1910 catalogs were dated, but not numbered, which added to my initial confusion. So somewhere between 1916 (Catalog 20 - based on business start) and 1923 (Catalog 23, also dated 1923), Shakespeare decided to sync dates and catalog numbers.

Thanks for all the help! Now let's get cracking on the rest of the questions . . .

ORIGINAL POST:

Working on my swan song. Looking at the Marhoff Centurion reels. Need some corroboration with found reels and Shakespeare advertisement. Have 1909 and 1910 catalog copies. Have a copy from Harvey of catalog 17 (1917 season?) but Harvey's note says it's from 1913? This is the catalog missing pages 18 and 19 - the pages the Marhoff entry would occupy - but at least the parts pages include the Marhoff special parts. Then I have a copy of catalog 20 (1920 season?) but Harvey's note says 1916?

My Questions:
1. Do I believe Harvey's assigned dates or the catalog numbers? (I believe he got these dates from NFLCC library copies?)

2. Does anyone have the missing Catalog 17 pages?

3. Does anyone have access to any of the other catalogs, i.e., 1911, 1912, 1913?, 1914, 1915, 1916?, 1917?, 1918, 1919, and/or 1920?

4. I have Marhoff reels stamped 1910, 1912 stamped over 1910, 1912, 1914, 1918, and 1919. Anyone have a Marhoff stamped 1911, 1913, 1915, 1916, 1917, or 1920?

Much appreciate any help, or related thoughts, Y'all might have!

Len


Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:53 pm 
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Yes, it's a mess, I know. I have Catalog No.23, which is clearly "dated" 1923. I have catalog No.20 which, because of the number, I just assumed was 1920 (but which Harvey stated was 1916). So, I clearly don't know what year it is. Catalog No.17 is a real stumper. But I do know it's earlier than 1915/1916, because it's marked "Wm. Shakespeare Jr. Co.". If it was after the name change in 1915, it would have been labeled "Shakespeare Company". WWI might well have interrupted the printing of catalogs, screwing things up as they are now. I've never seen any of the other catalogs from the teens. Those would be quite a find, if they exist.
Mark


Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:48 pm 
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I don't know enough to have an opinion. Most of mine are Model 1964 . I see no dates on any of them. I have one a little older stamped 1924 on the foot? Len, what is this about your Swan Song? That best not be!


Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:24 am 
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In the early years of the 20th century many if not most companies to include tackle companies numbered rather than dated their catalogs. Heddon, Shakespeare and South Bend would all follow this system where the number on the catalog did not represent the year it was issued but rather the number of years that the company wanted you to know (think) they were is business. This South Bend, for instance, numbered their catalogs taking in to account the years that Worden had preceded their takeover of the company. In Shakespeare's case they numbered their catalogs from the year they began business. If my math does not fail me that would be 1898. As far as catalogs go, I have whatever was in the NFLCC Library. After it was "transferred" to digital disk all the originals in the Library "disappeared". No one wants to explain this and it has been a sore point for many years. However, the NFLCC librarian approached me several years ago and asked if I would like to take possession of all the existing copies (Xerox) that were in the library as he had been told to destroy them and could not bring himself to do it. I said yes for the same reason and now have 13+ very heavy boxes of filed catalogs. My hope is to get them into the hands of researchers who are interested in specific companies.
As far as early Shakespeare Marhoff's, I have a bunch. It was my intention to collect all of them but my attention was drawn elsewhere. Len I will write down the years that I do have and let you know later today. By the way, anybody want to buy some Marhoffs?


Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:04 pm 
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Me Bill! PM sent...


Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:49 pm 
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Mr. Kring, Sir,

Shakespeare started using Style 1964 in his 1909 catalog, and started stamping that on reels beginning with Model 1910 Marhoffs. That style number was shorthand for Marhoff reels. The Model numbers indicated the season when a particular version Marhoff was first formally introduced (e.g., 1910 Model, 1919 Model).

Starting in the mid 1920's, model changes were indicated by just the last two digits of the year (e.g., Model 24, Model 26). Then during the 1932 run, Shakespeare began using two letter codes for the two last digits of the model year. That's why you will find both Model 32 and Model HJ stamped reels. Any Lawson Price Guide has the letters to years conversion chart, and I suspect you can find the chart on this site as well.

Finally, all good things come to an end; I am just trying to finish up sharing some of what I think I have learned before I do. And I am reminded about a bit of wisdom my Son shared with me many moons ago when he said "Dad, I just hope when I am your age, I know half of what you think you know."

Len


Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:18 pm 
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Len, more power to you to get your knowledge down on paper (or on the computer or where ever).

Everyone's conclusions on the catalogs makes me feel a lot better. The "years" for those "teens ones" didn't make sense before based on the pics, etc.

As to year dates of my Marhoffs - they are consistent with what you have/know about: 1910, 1912, 1914, 1918 and 1919.

Carl


Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:24 pm 
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Swan song to me means throwing in the towel! You are too much of an asset to the club to do that. I still remember you dancing on the dinner tables at Dowagic. That was my first meeting of anybody from O.R.C.A. I made my son join the club so I would know somebody there. I have always enjoyed your humor and your knowledge. I would classify you as one of the "Good Guys" in O.R.C.A.. I still remember going to Kalamazoo with a friend from Ferris State about 1964. He took me to a Shakespeare outlet store downtown that was wall to wall Shakespeare Reels. I bought a spincast reel there and used it to fish with while in Mi. I have many , many Mi. memories and you are one of them. (A good one I might add) And Mr. Kring was my Dad, I'm just Jon.


Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:59 pm 
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Len--

I have a Marhoff inscribed with Wm Shakespeare Jr, Kalamazoo Mich on bottom portion of tail plate but nothing stamped on bottom of the foot except what I think is a "serial no". No date anywhere. I assume this reel to be a pre-1910. Do you have one of these Marhoffs or have I previously sent you a pic of this reel?


Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:23 pm 
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Hey Joe,

Sounds like a 1909. Have a couple but would love to see some pics. Please include a shot of the pawl area.

Len


Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:50 pm 
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I doubt that I have anything different than you do Len but I will send a couple of pics whenever I can get time.


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