A note about collectors insurance re Talbot Eli theft reported in TRN

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Paul M
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A note about collectors insurance re Talbot Eli theft reported in TRN

Post by Paul M »

Based on the article in the March Reel News about a Talbot Eli reel that was allegedly stolen at an unaffiliated show, I asked ORCA Associate Member Minico Collectibles Insurance LLC about whether the loss would have been covered under one of their policies. Here is my full question and the full response with bold italics used to isolate the salient details. I heard anecdotally that thefts at shows happen more than you might think. Protect your items by keeping your good reels/lures in locked showcases and check to see if you are covered by insurance for a loss in situations like this. (This is not an endorsement of this insurance company, but the information and insight is very useful to people in this situation IMHO).
From: "Dan Sommer" <dsommer@MiniCo.com>
Subject: RE: Thank you
Date: March 22, 2018 at 9:30:32 AM EDT
To: "Paul Manuel" <pmanuel@sympatico.ca>

Hi Paul,

Ok, I found out some information. We do not have a location limitation on our policies, so a collector would be covered when at a show. However, please note that if the individual was in the business as dealer (not a private collector) he would not be eligible for coverage under our program.

Hope that helps.

Regards,
Dan

Dan Sommer
Vice President
Marketing & Communications
Chief Marketing Officer

MINICO INSURANCE AGENCY, LLC
Member ARAN Insurance Services Group
—————————————————————————————
10851 N. Black Canyon Highway, Suite 200, Phoenix, AZ 85029

Toll Free: 800.528.1056 Direct: 602.678.3504
Fax: 602.308.6304 Internet: http://www.minico.com

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From: Paul Manuel [mailto:pmanuel@sympatico.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2018 10:23 AM
To: Dan Sommer
Subject: Re: Thank you

Hi Dan:
I hope all is well. We learned of a reel that was stolen during an old tackle show. The notice is shown on the ORCA Facebook page. The owner left the reel unattended on their sales table. I am curious to know if that would have been a covered loss if the owner had a standard collectibles policy. Or does it only cover situations where the loss is at home or the regular storage location?

Regards,
Paul

Sent from my iPhone
Paul Manuel

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Re: A note about collectors insurance re Talbot Eli theft reported in TRN

Post by sdlehr »

I don't know about anyone else, but that confuses me. What are their definitions of "collector" and "dealer", and when does one become the other?
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Re: A note about collectors insurance re Talbot Eli theft reported in TRN

Post by wrong99 »

If you're selling at a show, I believe you're considered a dealer. You're "dealing".
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Re: A note about collectors insurance re Talbot Eli theft reported in TRN

Post by Paul M »

From: "James Appleton" <James.Appleton@minico.com>
Subject: Answering question on Dealer definition
Date: March 22, 2018 at 6:13:09 PM EDT
To: <pmanuel@sympatico.ca>
Cc: <dsommer@MiniCo.com>

Hi Paul,

This is how we determine if someone is a dealer:

Dealer verses Collector:
· Generally the 80/20 rule applies, most collectors at times sell portions of their collection as they change out pieces or upgrade the collection. If they are selling over 20% of their collection annually more questions need to be asked to see if they are a dealer.
· If they don’t rent commercial space but only work out of their home and buy and sell from their collection makes this more acceptable.
· If they have an active website that lists everything for sale and can take payments, they probably are not a private collector but more of a professional or dealer.
· What is their primary job? Is collecting the occupation or is this just a hobby as a main source of income?
There is no strict definition for a Dealer so we use our best judgment when underwriting. There is no exclusion for being a dealer under our program, we determine the eligibility through the Underwriting process prior to accepting a new customer.

Regards,

James

James Appleton
Director of Sales, Special Risk

MINICO INSURANCE AGENCY, LLC
Member ARAN Insurance Services Group
—————————————————————————————
10851 N. Black Canyon Highway, Suite 200, Phoenix, AZ 85029

Toll Free: 800.824.6864 Direct: 602.678.3532
Fax: 602.678.3511 Internet: http://www.minico.com

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Mike N
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Re: A note about collectors insurance re Talbot Eli theft reported in TRN

Post by Mike N »

sdlehr wrote:I don't know about anyone else, but that confuses me. What are their definitions of "collector" and "dealer", and when does one become the other?
Lol, that’s the beauty of insurance and why great investors like Warren Buffet love the business. Collect premiums, then use ambiguous and confusing terms to deny paying out claims.

Why distinguish a dealer from a collector if a reel is stolen off a table? Is the risk of loss to the underwriter any greater? Of course not.
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Re: A note about collectors insurance re Talbot Eli theft reported in TRN

Post by sdlehr »

I actually figured it would be ambiguous to some extent. So perhaps if one is considered a "dealer" then other "business insurance" would be necessary.... but 20% turnover in a year is probably a lot for a seasoned collector, but not necessarily for someone like me that is only a few years in and is still figuring out what to keep from the past and what to move along to make room.
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Re: A note about collectors insurance re Talbot Eli theft reported in TRN

Post by Midway Tommy D »

The combination to that lock is to have a whole lot of cheap stuff in your collection and just sell or trade the higher end stock. That's a fairly simple equation.

I don't have a horse in this race but if you fall into the dealer category you should have a federal tax id#, state sales tax# & more than likely some form of liability insurance because that's not a hobby. Personally, I think anybody that advertises buying and/or selling, reels, lures, tackle, etc. should be considered a dealer. I know a few guys that buy a lot, sell most of what they buy and keep all the really good stuff for themselves. At that point, in my mind, it's no longer just a hobby. They are paying for what they keep with the profits from what they sell.
Love those Open Face Spinning Reels! (Especially ABU & ABU/Zebco)

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Re: A note about collectors insurance re Talbot Eli theft reported in TRN

Post by Mike N »

Good points, Tommy. The IRS has rules that distinguish a hobby from a business. Q: If you fly to an ORCA or FATC meet to set up and sell, is your airline ticket tax deductible? A: It depends.


From the IRS website:
“Is it a Business or a Hobby? A key feature of a business is that you do it to make a profit. You often engage in a hobby for sport or recreation, not to make a profit. You should consider nine factors when you determine whether your activity is a hobby.

Allowable Hobby Deductions. Within certain limits, you can usually deduct ordinary and necessary hobby expenses. An ordinary expense is one that is common and accepted for the activity. A necessary expense is one that is appropriate for the activity.

Limits on Hobby Expenses. Generally, you can only deduct your hobby expenses up to the amount of hobby income. If your hobby expenses are more than your hobby income, you have a loss from the activity. You can’t deduct the loss from your other income.”
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Re: A note about collectors insurance re Talbot Eli theft reported in TRN

Post by Harry Verdurchi »

Insurance policies like this have miles of Fine Print and they have their own lawyers to interpret them and you NEED a TEAM of LAWYERS to interpret what their interpretation therein, whereas ,heretofore , the party of the first part and the party of the second part in which if there is no Habeas Corpus everything is Moot and or not necessarily legal nor enforceable in certain States, Municipalities , nor Flea Markets , Garage Sales,Pvt. Associations,Clubs or Auction sites.
Truth is if your dumb enough to walk off and leave something like that with no one watching it for you, some kid might walk up and think it is a free sample and just walk away with it .
Harsh but nonetheless reality.
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Re: A note about collectors insurance re Talbot Eli theft reported in TRN

Post by john elder »

Well, my take is that the problem has always been when the PUB-lic (as Ron White might pronounce it) enters the picture. It has always been a luxury in NFLCC and ORCA shows that one could walk away from your stuff without need of locking it up and enjoy a bit of commaraderie with like folks. When folks with no connection come in...and often pay to do so...then that’s when you need to watch out. ...and yes, there will always be a few jerks in a club, but they are soon found out and hanged.
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Re: A note about collectors insurance re Talbot Eli theft reported in TRN

Post by kyreels »

I think the description given of a dealer versus a collector given by Minico is OK, and it is OK to underwrite the two differently. A dealer that attends many shows may be slightly higher risk, although you might argue it is the trusting collector that gets hit, but there are many more of them. I don't think any insurance company would deny a claim from anyone that did not conduct his hobby as a business. Think even if you brought 30% of your collection to a show to sell, and one was stolen, you could/should make a claim.

I agree with John Elder. While the occasional bad apple was discovered in the past, it is mostly non-members or "guests" that have lifted in the past. Reports of the occasional Abu Gacia 5000 stolen from a table at the edge of a show is a more typical example of what usually happens. I don't know of any item being stolen from a locked case (even though we all use the same keys).
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Re: A note about collectors insurance re Talbot Eli theft reported in TRN

Post by Mike N »

Video surveillance is starting to turn the tide on theft. You may not catch the lowlife in the act, but a playback can certainly identify the thief after the fact. There are several portable video camera models that can monitor your table, and a sign noting the same is probably a better deterrent and wiser investment than an annual insurance premium.

Also, it goes without saying that an investment in a vintage, locking table top display case that travels well to shows sure makes those shows more enjoyable.
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Re: A note about collectors insurance re Talbot Eli theft reported in TRN

Post by colby sorrells »

Since Mr. Elder brought it up might as well stir the coffee a little. There were two tackle meets within one month time and both very close in distance. One allowed the public and one did not. One had an expensive reel stolen and one did not. One was members only and one was not.

The price we all pay for allowing non-members to events, for the supposedly reason of gaining new members, is there will occasionally be a problem with things walking out.

We as members have to realize we have to handle things differently when the public is admitted. Things like watching your neighbors table and lockable cases are necessities when the public is admitted.

Luxuries like being able to walk away from your table without worrying about it are only available when it is a members only event.

I've seen this happen over the years as more events allow the public in.

So if we want to continue to allow the public in, with the supposedly reason being it helps create new members, then we have to pay the price of occasionally losing things, lockable cases and always watching our tables.

We each get one vote on how this is handled.

Now, those non-members out there can come after what I've said. In the fishing world we call them potlickers.

Thanks to all of the members of ORCA that actually pay the bill, and yes it does cost something, to have this website. They make this discussion possible.

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Re: A note about collectors insurance re Talbot Eli theft reported in TRN

Post by kyreels »

After the last show I hosted in Louisville, I swore I would never host again without video security on 4 sides of the room. That really is the best solution. Clubs will die a slower death without guests and new members. Members only shows end up with everyone seeing the same stuff over and over.

Technology and wireless cameras will save us in the future. Think we just need show hosts to adopt it. The clubs need to pay the entry price for an HD camera system with DVR.
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Re: A note about collectors insurance re Talbot Eli theft reported in TRN

Post by Tom R »

I, like many, was disappointed to read about the Talbot reel theft. Having attended several local shows over the past couple of years I've noticed tables either unmanned or manned by one person. Why not have several members volunteer as "table sitters" at the Harpers Ferry show? This would allow exhibitors a chance to visit, grab a bite to eat or use the restroom without worry. Volunteer "table sitters" could rotate "shifts" throughout the show, maybe an hour or two on duty, then off. Just limit the length of time an exhibitor can be away, say 15-30 minutes. If an exhibitor is uneasy having someone they do not know watch their table an alternative would be having two members table sit.
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