Advising a new collector on..

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Mike N
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Advising a new collector on..

Post by Mike N »

I have had a few new collectors (and old collectors who finally got the kids out of school and have some new-found disposable income) ask me: what reels do you think are still undervalued and have some upside appreciation potential?

They are not looking for the “buy what you like” answer, but simply want to make wise spending decisions in building a collection of vintage reels. I have a few thoughts I’ll post later.

Any suggestions of which specific type or make of vintage reels you think are the best value now? What market trends make you feel that way?

Thanks

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RonG
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Re: Advising a new collector on..

Post by RonG »

Mike, That's a tough one. It's like asking "what stocks should I buy that are undervalued and have upside appreciation value." Boy I wish I knew the answer to that one. It really does boil down to what you like to collect. And, like you said about this fellow, the older you get, you typically have more disposable income. New collectors typically buy everything. The longer you collect, the more you focus. I wouln't want to deprive a person of the experience most of us have had on buying a bunch of common items and paying too much for them. I recommend that he go to Tackle Shows and see what's out there and what strikes his fancy. Having a collector pal or coach along with him would be good.
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Re: Advising a new collector on..

Post by wrong99 »

It would depend on the resources they have available to assemble a collection, for one. There's other variables to consider, too. How long they're willing to wait for a marked appreciation, which in turn might depend on how old they are. This is a very good question, which has had me thinking on it for hours, yet I'm still looking for an answer. I'm not sure I know.
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Mike N
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Re: Advising a new collector on..

Post by Mike N »

OK. Here are a few of my takes on what MIGHT make a good future vintage reel collection that maintains or increases in value:

1. Reels with trademarks that a Generation X’er would recognize, such as Abercrombie & Fitch and Orvis. When I first started collecting, VL&A Chicago items were popular but no 35-year-old now even knows that name. Every 35-year-old recognizes A&F. In fact, today I saw a young stock broker wearing an Orvis fly fishing baseball cap, and Orvis clothing catalogs are very popular with young people. When my mid-twenty year old sons’ friends come to the house and look at my collection, they inevitably want to hold the Orvis 1874 model reels, not my Meeks or Milams, much to my chagrin.

2. I’m a bait caster guy, but I think fly reels and big game reels are the future for collecting. It’s just a bigger audience with young people.

3. If you do want to collect casting reels, I strongly would suggest vintage Abu Garcia Ambassadeur reels, although I’ve never owned one. They always seem to make up a significant number of the vintage reels being “watched” on eBay, probably due to international collectors. For American casting reels, I think that vintage tournament casting reels likely have the best chance of appreciating in value.

One last thought- 20 years ago the smart money said that fish decoy collecting was dead or dying because of the number of fakes and the ease of making a fish decoy. However, if you look at collectorsweekly.com, the number of bidders “following” carved fish decoys generally exceeds the number following most vintage reels. Go figure.

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john elder
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Re: Advising a new collector on..

Post by john elder »

I don’t have much to add to what Ron said. If the fellow has no passion for going after what he likes, then he is just an investor. I suppose my only advice would be to buy rarest they can afford, since the high end reels hold value better than high production reels. If not rare, then need to concentrate on collecting NIB or MIB reels....they will always hold better value and have a better chance for gain.
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Specializing in saltwater reels...and fly reels...and oh, yeah, kentucky style reels.....and those tiny little RP reels.....oh, heck...i collect fishing reels!...and fly rods....and lures
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Re: Advising a new collector on..

Post by Roger Schulz »

Here is what I would advise:

1) Like John said, try and get reels that are mint and also in the original box.
2) Deversify your collection. I have Meisselbachs, Pflueger, Shakespeare, Carlton, brass metal reels, ball-handle reels, Meeks, Montague, etc. That way it will always balance out better and you can always find something at a show.
3) Original catalogs and paperwork are going up in value.
4) Get your collecting interest out for people to see via doing displays, writing articles for the Reel News, giving seminars, etc.
5) Don't rely upon Ebay for building your collections. I have probably purchased 5 or 6 reels on ebay. I have a 700 reel collection. Make contacts with other collectors, go to shows, checkout Langs, get involved in collecting.
6) Buy what interests you. I can get excited buying a $30 reels as much as buying a $1,000 reel.

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Re: Advising a new collector on..

Post by Ray Hencken »

My approach to collecting was:
1. Buy what I like, what interested me, and the best that I could afford. If it was a reel that I really wanted for my collection, don't pass it up. It might be a long time before I would see another, if ever.
2. Try not to pay too much and hope that I could at least break even if I sold the item.
3. Don't expect to see a large appreciation in value, one will.probably be disappointed.
4. I think that there are better places to invest your money, if appreciation of the investment is your main goal.
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Re: Advising a new collector on..

Post by oc1 »

I had no idea that people thought old reels were and investment that would appreciate in value enough to justify the time or even exceed the rate of inflation.
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Re: Advising a new collector on..

Post by Paul M »

My 2 cents:

Don’t confuse investing with speculating. Collectibles are the riskiest investments in any portfolio and some of the rarest items can suddenly lose value... like when a collection goes to auction.
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Re: Advising a new collector on..

Post by reelsmith. »

As some others have said, I'd advise buying what you like and in the best condition possible. Period.

That way, if the value of the reels you collect tanks, at least you have a bunch of reels you like.

Simple as that.

Having watched all different kinds of reels go up and down in value over the years, I'd be hesitant to guess which ones (if any) are likely to go up and stay up.

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Re: Advising a new collector on..

Post by Midway Tommy D »

Ray Hencken wrote:My approach to collecting was:
1. Buy what I like, what interested me, and the best that I could afford. If it was a reel that I really wanted for my collection, don't pass it up. It might be a long time before I would see another, if ever.
2. Try not to pay too much and hope that I could at least break even if I sold the item.
3. Don't expect to see a large appreciation in value, one will.probably be disappointed.
4. I think that there are better places to invest your money, if appreciation of the investment is your main goal.
I can't put it any better than Ray has. The only thing I have to add is that I see rare high dollar reels on this site regularly that I have no ambition to own yet I have numerous lower value reels in my collection that I really enjoy working on, looking at and fondling. For me this pass time has to be more enjoyable than profitable, but I always buy with the idea of at least someday recouping what I've spent. Hopefully with that perspective, down the road, me or my heirs won't be too disappointed. :)
Love those Open Face Spinning Reels! (Especially ABU & ABU/Zebco)

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Re: Advising a new collector on..

Post by Teal »

I have this question come up fairly regularly. I have a standard answer: if you are a collector, buy what you like in the best condition possible (with box and papers where possible). No one knows what the future will bring, but better condition always trumps worse condition, and in box is always the best. A standard Pflueger Akron from the 1950s is a $20-$30 reel; in the box with the cellophane they sell $150-$200.

If they are investors, I tell them to seek out the growing custom reel makers and small hand-made makers, and start a collection of them. Since ORCA began, if you had spent 5k a year on custom made reels from burgeoning and small shop makers in the 1990s (Bogdan, Janicuras, etc.) your investment would have at least tripled during that time.

Alternatively, watch where the lure market is going and collect accordingly. Bass lures are all the rage; Lew's Speed Spools, Shimano Bantams, etc. have increased in value along with them.

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Re: Advising a new collector on..

Post by m3040c »

There is no pat answer to this question. What has worked for me over the long term is to educate myself as much as possible in order to buy smart and then buy "Bundles". I look for groups of reels that have what I want in the group, plus other items that I can resell to make up the investment I put into the group. Optimum bundle buy is getting to keep what you like and making a profit out of the bundle by reselling what you do not want. This way you are always working with no investment at all or you are in the "Black" while you wind up with property you want.

I generally do not think of collecting as an investment, although many times it can work out that way. If you think of your collecting purely in terms of profit, you are not a collector, you are a businessman / investor. IMHO
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Mike N
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Re: Advising a new collector on..

Post by Mike N »

Some very good points made above. I doubt any member of ORCA really thinks of their collection in terms of its return on investment, but it’s nice to help new collectors avoid some of the pitfalls. Heck, if I added up all the airline tickets, hotel rooms and show table fees, I am pretty far in the red. But it was all worth every penny.

I have always liked Julius vom Hofe reels, especially when I was starting out. After I bought about 50 common JVH reels in the $40-50 range, Brian McGrath of Fishing Collectibles Magazine nicely suggested I focus on the less common JVH reels. So, I sold about 20 of the reels at a loss and bought a nice JVH fly reel with the proceeds. I still have it, but don’t have any of the other remaining 30 original purchases.

There is a “tuition” all new collectors pay for the knowledge they acquire.

The other problem was that when I would go to an NFLCC show (and there were plenty of them in the ‘90s) seldom could I find the rarer JVH reels, and it’s no fun to come home with the money you had budgeted for new acquisitions. So I branched out into other reels with the focus on quality.

I think the advice above from Teal to buy boxed reels with papers, even at a significant premium, is a great tip and I wish I would have done more of that 25 years ago when Pflueger, Meisselbach and Shakespeare boxes were fairly common. Condition is everything, too. Pay a little more for excellent condition, even if it means only buying two reels at a show rather than 3 or 4.

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Wayne B.
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Re: Advising a new collector on..

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I have lately been concentrating on sets of reels rather than shotgun style purchases like I did in the beginning. Sets like all the transition Ambassadeurs, all the Coxe 25’s, all the Shakespeare Sportcasts, all the Penn Senators, all the midecentury green Penn’s etc. And of course with boxes whenever possible.

Sets may not have a higher market value than individual reels, but their intrinsic value to me makes it a worthwhile endeavor. As a collector ( not investor ) I enjoy the challenge of the hunt for a missing item. In the end have I achieved a higher market value? I don’t know. Is the collection more valuable to me? You bet! IMHO
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Re: Advising a new collector on..

Post by Low Profile »

I never got into reel collecting to turn a profit. Fishing is my pastime and I enjoy quality made gear. This isn't to say that you can't mass a small fortune if you play your cards right, work hard at it and have quite a a bit of lady luck on your side.

Early on I was very much into vintage spinning gear and accumulated a hoard of early light to ultra light spin reels. First off I liked them but secondly I figured maybe they would be the next hot item. Well, it hasn't panned out yet and the prices have either leveled off or gone into the tank in recent years. No gain - no loss and I have the luxory of a nice collection.

Through the late 1980's and 1990's I watched the demise of fishing reel industry with the graphite and plastic reel craze and the outsourcing of manufacture to the orient. I was beside myself watching well established companies wither. I'm sure a lot of this had to do with regulations and economic trends but it was demoralizing and this event is what got me into collecting and using older reels.

If my sole reason for collecting was to turn a profit these would be my criteria for collecting

Buy limited edition reels (new or old)
Buy rare vintage reels
Buy bench made reels made by highly skilled craftsmen (new or old)
Buy 1st versions or early versions of reels
Buy reels that have a strong following
Buy reels that have a history for quality
Buy reels that are being discontinued (yes some well made reels can be discontinued)
Stay away from mass produced reels unless they are mint in the box or a rare variant
Don't pay retail unless you see the potential (which may be long term)

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Re: Advising a new collector on..

Post by oc1 »

Wayne B. wrote:Sets like all the transition Ambassadeurs,
Please excuse me for going off topic for just a moment... Wayne, are transition Ambassadeurs the same as crossover Ambassadeurs? Like the 1750, 2000, 2050, 2650, etc. The 5000 style predates and post-dates them so what were they transitioning from and transitioning to? Sorry, it's been bugging me for a while.
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Re: Advising a new collector on..

Post by Wayne B. »

Great question! Looks like they were transitioning to a place they didn’t want to go. I hope an Ambassaduer guru chimes in with an explanation. I think my description as “transition” is probably wrong...crossover is most likely more correct.
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Re: Advising a new collector on..

Post by joe klaus »

I'm late to the party on this topic but the question is interesting. And after reading all of the above replies, I think I have to agree with Dean's observation that "Having watched all different kinds of reels go up and down in value over the years, I'd be hesitant to guess which ones (if any) are likely to go up and stay up".

The problem with the advice of buying the best quality (most expensive?) that you can afford leaves out the issue of "true market value". The reel is only worth what another person is willing to pay for it. And therefore "market value" can change drastically from year to year on high priced reels. I do agree if you hold them long enough, you will "do o.k.", but it would be a big mistake to buy reels as an investment if there was any chance you might be forced to liquidate at an inopportune time.

And what we think is "rare" today may not be considered rare in 5 to 10 years. Ebay has assisted us in defining rarity but one never knows for certain just how many of a certain reel are sitting in collections or closets. It is interesting that few "good reels" will surface for sale during periods when prices are perceived as low. But when someone steps up and starts paying big money, the scarce and the rare reels will start to surface on a regular basis.

And then there's the whole issue of knowledge. Several have mentioned it. This is the key to whole thing. And you can't have knowledge without spending 100s if not 1000s of hours dealing with reels. And studying. And no one is going to do that unless they enjoy it. It's got to be fun.

There simply is no easy answer.
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