L.A. Coxe Reels - Questions To John Elder About Article

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Re: L.A. Coxe Reels - Questions To John Elder About Article

Post by Richard Lodge »

Wow! Deepfins, that is a beautiful reel and box, and that from a guy who doesn't collect big-game reels (but definitely admires them). Like Mike said, that would be a great centerpiece in any collection. Thanks for sharing the photos and story.
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Re: L.A. Coxe Reels - Questions To John Elder About Article

Post by reeltackle »

I hope you guys don't mind if I take up a little space here. I have here the first Genuine J. A. Coxe and Bronson Coxe Catalog and I thought I would post a few pages for all of you that might be interested. This is a high quality catalog printed with a heavy stock, textured cover with glossy three-color pages.

This catalog is marked - CATALOG No. 37

There are many reels and fishing accessories in this catalog, however, one item that is missing from this catalog and present in subsequent catalogs is the book about Joe Coxe, "Men, Fish & Tackle". This Book was written by Ralph Bandini and self published by Bronson in May of 1936 to promote the Coxe reels and the company which was now under new ownership. The reason I mention this is that wrong 99 stated that:
wrong99 wrote:From the Bronson-Coxe Catalog No.37 (1938)
To me, the omission of the Coxe book would suggest that this catalog was in the works prior to the publishing of the book in 1936 and was printed for the year 1937. Most catalogs are worked up prior to the year they serve and I suspect this to be the case with the No. 37 Catalog. I know when I used to publish my yellow page directories the work started for the coming year's directory six months prior to the beginning of that year. I believe that this catalog was being worked up prior to the book coming out and this would explain why the "Men Fish & Tackle" book, which was written solely to promote Bronson's reels, was omitted from this catalog. Wrong99, what say you?



Next we introduce the man himself - Joe Coxe, pictured with his hand-made, pre-Bronson reels.




Skip a page or two and now we are into the pages with product. The first reel is the 20/0 cradle. From my research this is the the first and only mention of the Coxe 20/0 cradle. You can see the free-spool lever on the right hand side of the reel. This was an illustration and not a photo of the final product, so, there may have never been a 20/0 cradle produced with a free-spool lever attached. I own and have only seen one of these reels and it does not have a free-spool lever. Has anyone seen another 20/0 cradle?




Next, come the pages for the 14/0 and 16/0 cradle reels. If anyone would like to see these pages just let me know and I will post them later. Next are two pages promoting Tycoon Rods tips which were being sold to go with the cradle reels. From the catalog description, the only Tycoon tip that appears to be available is the Bimini King tip. I have seen 3 tips marked J. A. Coxe and all have been Bimini King tips. Has anyone seen a different tip marked J. A. Coxe? Below is one of the two pages concerning Tycoon:



Next comes the Genuine J. A. Coxe 12/0 reels in the; 12/0CW (wide), 12/0CR (regular) and the 12/0CN (narrow) sizes. Notice the mention that the reels are now featured with the "Coxe Auto Mesh" free-spool.




The next four pages are devoted to the 9/0 size reels. The "Genuine J. A. Coxe" 9/0 reels, which were Bronson's top of the line reels and the "Bronson Coxe Deep Sea" 9/0 reels, which are the lesser of their two models.






Here is the price guide which was stapled to the inside front cover.



There are several more pages of reels, gaffs, harnesses and other accessories in this catalog. I hope you enjoy the pages that I have posted and I hope this information helps someone out with their research.

Ed
Last edited by reeltackle on Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: L.A. Coxe Reels - Questions To John Elder About Article

Post by wrong99 »

Ed,
My Bronson-Coxe Catalog No.37 is virtually identical to yours, with one exception. Page One in my catalog is not the "Forward" which is shown in yours. Page One in mine is a Price List, in the exact same format as your price list, but which states "Above Prices Effective March 1, 1938". That it wasn't a later supplement price list and actually was the first numbered page of the catalog, was what led me to believe it was actually the 1938 Bronson-Coxe catalog. As I'm sure you know, the Catalog numbers for some manufacturers didn't always correspond to the catalog year. I just figured it was a book created in 1937 for release in 1938.
Mark
* I just noticed that mine does NOT show the 20/0 Cradle model.
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Re: L.A. Coxe Reels - Questions To John Elder About Article

Post by reeltackle »

Mark,
Great to know! So now we know there were at least two printings of Catalog No. 37, one without the prices and with the 20/ reel and one with the prices and without the 20/0 reel. I would imagine the one without the prices and with the 20/0 reel came first. The price sheet stapled to the inside front cover of my catalog states: Prices Effective April 1, 1937. This leads me to believe that this may be the earliest catalog but not necessarily the first price sheet nor the printing date of the catalog. The catalog could have been printed and sent out with earlier price sheets for many months prior to my iteration. Perhaps the catalog remained the same but the price list was constantly being updated. Does your copy of the catalog have the book "Men Fish & Tackle" for sale in it? Are the prices the same in the both catalogs?
Ed
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Re: L.A. Coxe Reels - Questions To John Elder About Article

Post by wrong99 »

Ed,
Your book, with the price list "Effective April 1, 1937" and the 20/0 reel is the earliest. Prices actually dropped the following year by 10-20%. I'll post a photo of it in a bit. No, my catalog does not offer the "Men, Fish & Tackle" book for sale. However, it is offered in Catalog No.41.
Mark
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Re: L.A. Coxe Reels - Questions To John Elder About Article

Post by wrong99 »

Here's the price list from mine. It says Page One at the very bottom (not shown).
Mark
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Re: L.A. Coxe Reels - Questions To John Elder About Article

Post by reeltackle »

Just found this J. A. Coxe ad from an old Von Lengerke & Detmold catalog.
A nice exploded view of the reel and a couple of accessories.

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john elder
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Re: L.A. Coxe Reels - Questions To John Elder About Article

Post by john elder »

Nice pics, Ed! Thanks for archiving it all here. having fought my way in and out of those reels a few times, I might suggest that they have simplified that "explosion" juuuust a bit!
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Re: L.A. Coxe Reels - Questions To John Elder About Article

Post by reeltackle »

And yet more Coxe stuff from a 1937 publication..............

A Coxe reel on a rod held in a special surf casting sand-spike rig with lantern.

A smaller Coxe reel being de-spooled on a line dryer.

A 20/0 Coxe cradle reel for tuna fishing. WHAT A REEL!!

Normally I would say the Coxe 20/0 would be the scarcest Coxe item on the page but ..... Thar she blows, a 12/0 Coxe reel attached to a rod, attached to a spear gun with a telescopic sight for shark fishing. Just get that big fellow in your sights, pull the trigger, release the air compressed harpoon and let the battle begin .... Seriously sick stuff!! .... if anyone has one of these things in their collection please let me know!!

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john elder
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Re: L.A. Coxe Reels - Questions To John Elder About Article

Post by john elder »

I suppose I shoulda started another thread with this, but it made sense to keep all this Coxe adventure in the same place.

So, I bought this reel a several years ago on ebay and it has sat as a mystery reel ever since. I have been meaning to open it up and see what's up with it, but it was so nice...clearly has never been on a rod or lined....so I haven't done anything. It came out of Bronson and the scuttlebutt was that it came from the factory. Whether it is a prototype or not is unclear, but as you'll see, it's a real anomaly in the Bronson/Coxe story.

First of all, this reel is not a Bronson reel; as far as I am aware, all the reels after the move to Bronson were the "quick breakdown" style...this one is clearly a "screwed" LA Coxe style reel...NS, not plated like all the other Bronson reels. It has no star drag...in fact, it barely has any drag at all, unless there is something that I haven't figure out yet. Furthermore, it has no anti-reverse..and it has a funky undersized Bronson-style handle that if not for everything else about this reel, I would assume was just stuck on by someone. It is held on by a brass plate and two screws. The numbering is unlike either LA or Bronson-style labeling, with what appears to be a serial number (4578). i guess the "6-0" marking could be Bronson style, but not the location.




interestingly, a couple years ago, I saw another reel like this one come by on eBay and like an idiot, I didn't go after it. Perhaps one of you pulled the trigger and have it on your shelf (hope so!). I will open the reel up and see what's going on with the small drag that it has (I don't think it would discourage a good-sized bluegill), but I thought I'd go ahead and post this first for comment/input
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Re: L.A. Coxe Reels - Questions To John Elder About Article

Post by Brian F. »

The handle knob and crank look like Bronson Coxe made but the rest of the reel looks like LA Coxe, like you pointed out. That collar and crank retainer are pretty unusual.
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Re: L.A. Coxe Reels - Questions To John Elder About Article

Post by m3040c »

I would say it is not a prototype. I would call it an experimental reel. The handle is the Coxe style, which tells me the reel is not from the early days of the Joe Coxe / Bronson merge. Someone in the Bronson engineering department was possibly using the Coxe reel as a platform to try out a part. I expect, when you open the reel, you will find all the internals to be pure Joe Coxe. The only difference will be the handle and what it connects to.

Very rare indeed, I find it amazing that you have seen another one. I would have thought it would be a unique piece.

Of course I am only guessing here, but I have seen the kind of practice before and it would not be the first experimental reel to accidently leave the factory. :)
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john elder
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Re: L.A. Coxe Reels - Questions To John Elder About Article

Post by john elder »

Oh, my......




So, the mystery of why the "drag" was weak is solved. I'm still not sure where they were going with this?? It's like they re-purposed this great reel for something, but no idea what. The handle is a standard Bronson handle. It is not specially cut for this reel and has the standard square hole in the middle that has no purpose here; it is drilled to receive the two screws with the brass plate over the top. there are marks on it from being cranked down under that brass plate, but no loss of chrome, so I don't believe it came from an old used reel.

The gear is held on by the typical "pig ring" to the spindle. I see nothing out of the ordinary on the back plate side...standard LA Coxe clicker. All the metal components have the witness number "45" stamped in the metal; the hard rubber faceplate is marked with 72...can't see the back plate since it is riveted together. The pulley that mounts on the spindle is also marked "72". Grease pencil marks are present throughout both sides and all parts...wow...at a loss here....thoughts?
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Re: L.A. Coxe Reels - Questions To John Elder About Article

Post by m3040c »

My first thought is this reel should never have left the factory; but, was spirited away by someone that knew it had outlived it usefulness as a test bed reel. It looks just like what a reel would look like if it were being used as a test platform for a part or concept. Exactly what the criteria is I do not know; but, it certainly is a fantastic reel. I would say the witness marks are simply Joe Coxe left over marks, it is the grease pencil marks and the scribed in number "72" that have some kind of engineering meaning. IMHO.
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Re: L.A. Coxe Reels - Questions To John Elder About Article

Post by john elder »

One other observation is that if this reel were to work off a pole, it would hang as an under-reel like a multiplying fly reel, since the two pulleys work in the same direction. One could discount its relevance because of this. But why the serial #?

late add: here's a functioning Coxe inner face plate:



looking back at pics above, you can see that the plate is drilled for the posts for the anti-reverse dogs. note also the channel from the oiler to the spindle is missing.
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Re: L.A. Coxe Reels - Questions To John Elder About Article

Post by Midway Tommy D »

Oh, my......
That is an understatement, IMHO. :) All else aside, I am amazed at the buggerization of the post and base screw heads even though they are inside the face plate. :?
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Re: L.A. Coxe Reels - Questions To John Elder About Article

Post by wrong99 »

Midway Tommy D wrote:
Oh, my......
That is an understatement, IMHO. :) All else aside, I am amazed at the buggerization of the post and base screw heads even though they are inside the face plate. :?
Yeah, that sure doesn't look like "factory" work, huh? Looks like something I'd do to screw heads.
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Re: L.A. Coxe Reels - Questions To John Elder About Article

Post by john elder »

Yes, I noticed that. I'm guessing that I'm not the first person to delve in here and try to figure out what's up. certainly, a fellow with the talents of a Don Champion could have made that pulley system, but i'm still figuring the factory source is real....the reel is essentially new, old stock LA, except for the markings and modifications. It must have had some other role in the factory. I just wished that there were a few folks that worked there still around so we could ask them! Maybe I should try to chase down the now-invisible Dave O'rourke to see if he might know anything or still have connection in Bronson to someone that would.
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Re: L.A. Coxe Reels - Questions To John Elder About Article

Post by reeltackle »

Jeepers John .... you sure have yourself a reel mystery there.

Most unusual markings on the reel foot for an L. A. Coxe and it just gets crazier from there. Gotta love the pulley style drag and the fact that it was rigged to be fished under the reel. Wonder if it was modified by a one of the guys at the factory who wanted to fish for salmon up around Leland just off Lake Michigan. Anyway, it is a very cool riddle and I hope you find some more clues to help you solve it. Guess this is just part of what makes all this so much fun, cracking open a reel and finding something new.

Wish I could come up with more then just a ...... WOW, cool reel ... but WOW, cool reel!!!

Thanks for sharing John!
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Re: L.A. Coxe Reels - Questions To John Elder About Article

Post by Steve »

Maybe I'm dense, but I can't see anything that would allow adjusting drag, unless something happens if, say, you push the crank inwards. If there's no drag adjustment mechanism, it probably was an experiment to see if a belt (O-ring) drive would work in a reel like this. A number of chain-driven trolling reels were invented, so maybe someone thought a belt would do as well.
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Re: L.A. Coxe Reels - Questions To John Elder About Article

Post by john elder »

You are not missing anything, Steve...there is no drag...only the "drag" you get as the spool under resistance tries to turn against the pressure of the belt. And it takes very little to turn against the belt!

I made up the notion that the reel would hang down so as to allow a right hand wind of the line in the fashion of a single action reel; ie, spool turning in same dirction as the handle. No idea if that is the intention here.
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Re: L.A. Coxe Reels - Questions To John Elder About Article

Post by kingfisher »

I can't see it being any good for fishing. I wonder if someone playing around used it for sending paper messages from the office to production . Like you see with clothes lines between buildings.
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Re: L.A. Coxe Reels - Questions To John Elder About Article

Post by Midway Tommy D »

it probably was an experiment to see if a belt (O-ring) drive would work in a reel like this.
I agree. I'd say it was an attempt at a gear-less slip-clutch drive sort of thing that didn't quite pan out. It might have succeeded had they figured out some sort of idler pulley tightening mechanism on a smaller scale reel like, as you mentioned earlier, John, a blue gill or crappie sized reel. :D I can't even imagine a bill fish on that type of setup, no matter how stout the parts. :roll:
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Re: L.A. Coxe Reels - Questions To John Elder About Article

Post by Tightlines666 »

Maybe not a bad idea here... I mean pulley's are much easier to come by or manufacture then gears, so modifying the 'gear ratio' would be a much simpler undertaking. A chain driven set of sprokets would probably have proved more fruitfull with regards to a 'gearless' drive system design. An integrated Drag/anti reverse system could have been built on the tail side of the spool. Now I am likely taking my musing a bit far.

These unique prototype style reels provide great insight into the minds of the reel engineers of the time.

Thanks for sharing!

Steve,

I would he intetested in learning more of these non-gear drive train (or chain driven) multiplying reels of which you speak. Are there relevent threads here on the topic?

John
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Re: L.A. Coxe Reels - Questions To John Elder About Article

Post by Steve »

relevent threads here on the topic?
None I'm aware of.
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