Incredibly neat unknown saltwater reel

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john elder
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Incredibly neat unknown saltwater reel

Post by john elder »

i visited Michael Farrior this AM and got to handle and lust over some amazing reels, including all types of big game Hardy reels, including Ernest Hemingway's personal reel and their first two-speed reel; Kovalovskys, Coxe, Lees, Kleins, Steads...and also several unidenified reels...this one really caught my eye. It's very well made and has a very unique drag system that it's hard to believe it wasn't patented (STEVE...ANYTHING LIKE THIS IN YOUR PATENT SEARCHES?), but no number name, nothing! The drag is controlled from that knob on the grasp...counterclockwise twist backs off the drag and clockwise to tighten. it works great and after seeing that design, I'm surprised it didn't catch on. It also has a nice classy rim-controlled free-spool lever. The reel came from the LA area, but it really doesn't look like any of the major makers like Coxe, Klein, Stead or the Kovalovskys. I'm going to see what it might take to have a peek inside of that handle. From the looks of things, it likely acts by tightening a belt around a drum, something like Kovalovsky used, but much more subtle.
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Last edited by john elder on Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Steve
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Post by Steve »

Yo John! Gorgeous, fascinating reel! But until we see how that drag works, it's tough to even speculate about a patent. I hope it's a belt-tightener, as you suggest. If not, the drag wheel could be tilting that plate below the crank, and, if that's the case, it could work like Rockwell's Liberty Bell reel drag, pat. #804047. But I suspect that even if the plate does get tilted, it squeezes some internal drag parts together.

That being said, can we please stop crediting Fin-Nor or any other of the big-name trolling reel folks for the first two-speed reel? The earliest two-speed reel I'm aware of was patented in 1873, and there were a bunch more invented before 1910. The most sophisticated was invented by an Englishman in Arizona, whose reel had an automatic transmission that shifted from a multiplier to a single-action reel when line tension was sufficient.
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john elder
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Post by john elder »

Oops...sorry...I was talking about the Hardy two-speed...and maybe mike was referring to the first by the 'modern' makers (as opposed to Fin-nor)...neat reel...but we digress?...

So, Steve, I think you nailed it...at least the drag turns out to be similar to what you describe rather than a belt system...rather, it's a stack of football-shaped plates that get squeezed when a rod is pushed into the lower plate, which in turn pulls the plates together...neat! Is this like the Rockwell patent?

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Note the detail here...the maker put a tiny "tit" (stop laughing, Rick) on the edge where the cover (notched to match) sit so as to ensure it isn't put together 180 degrees off. Whole think is pretty Ph.D.-proof:
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At this point, I've removed the screw in the end of the spindle, but drag/handle does not to lift free...looks like I'll have to pull the front plate to go farther...perhaps I'll stew about that before doing more...Steve?...Report?
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Steve
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Post by Steve »

Is this like the Rockwell patent?
Yes, but much heavier and much more complex.
perhaps I'll stew about that
http://www.stewrecipes.net/
Report?
It's gonna take a search. Will give it a try soon. Can you tell if there are additional drag parts inside the reel? And what does that rim-mounted lever do? A search is much easier if we know exactly how the mechanism works.
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Rick H
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Post by Rick H »

Nice reel, Very Nice! Sure has an "Aircraft Machine Shop" look to it. L.A. Area...Long Beach maybe...McDonald-Douglas (now Boeing). Rivet work is commercial aircraft quality. (Just a Wild Guess)
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Post by john elder »

Steve: I wouldn't say there are more drag components inside, but the "sleeve" over which the drag stack is mounted moves out under drag pressure and acts on internal components to actually tighten down the drag...i.e., that sleeve extends inside the faceplate.

As mentioned in the first post, the lever on the rim is the free spool lever.

I'm thinking the next step is to pull off the tail plate, remove the spool and have a peek at things from that side.
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Steve
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Post by Steve »

Here we go, John, getting closer but no cigar yet.

Some adjustable drags using tilting plates:
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Some adjustable drags using gears:
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And my favorite, a chain-driven adjustment:
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john elder
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Post by john elder »

Neat finds, Steve! It looks like all those canting drags are similar in MO to the Meisselbach Sealine 75 drag in that the adjustment at the handle translates into working on a pressure plate inside the reel rather than having the stack on the outside like this one...that seems to be the major difference. The good feature is that it's incredibly easy to access and lubricate or change out the drags when things are external. Whether that's the best mechanical advantage is another matter.

I must admit that I have not determined the composition of those drags. They are drenched in oil and I think that's how they are intended to be. i was afraid to mess with flexing them, since so much of that material is brittle and I really didn't care to return this reel with a broken drag washer! It seems to be a micarta-type material...don't think they are metal as even with oil, that would like generate some pretty ugly heat issues. I'll take a closer look and see if I can find out more.
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Post by Brian F. »

Neat reel! ORCA has surely benefited from your willingness to dive right into all of the reels you've explored so far.

On another note, don't those drag washers look similar to Penn HT 100 material?
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john elder
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Post by john elder »

I think it's more like Rick's Williams drag material...impregnated linen. If I take that unit back apart, I'll ak a lens and have a closer look.
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m3040c
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Post by m3040c »

Excellent post gentlemen, please don't stop... :shock:
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john elder
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Post by john elder »

Patience, Mike! I've been trying to break into this fellow without breaking it. I'll show some more in a bit, but now have primal doubts that I'll get it totally broken down. Looks like that handle has to come off to get it open and it just doesn't want to budge. I'm almost sure it comes off by cranking backwards similar to lots of reels we've encountered, but even with light raps, it doesn't want to move, even with a good Kroil soak.

Money bet at this point is that it's likely a very well-made and unique one-off reel. I haven't found anyone that has seen another like it!
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Post by m3040c »

John,

Patience... Patience :!: :!: I don't need no stinkin PATIENCE :!: Everybody wants me to have Patience. My wife wants me to have patience, my kids want me to have patience, my publisher wants me to patience, the keeper of my pension plan want me to have patience, the government wants me to have patience and now, even my friends want me to have patience. Well, OK, I'll wait. <:O(

Merry Chrsitmas

:lol: :lol:

:idea: At the point I see you are at, the drag cover has been removed but the side plates are still on the frame. What did you find when, I presume, you removed the side plates. Possibly there is some kind of mechanical trick inside the side plates that will assist you in removing the handle.
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Post by john elder »

Well, been sitting here on the couch today watching the county wash out to the ocean. I've stewed about how to get in to the gears on the faceplate for three days...even ran it past a machinist friend of mine..can't find any obvious sneaky way to get inside. I'm convinced that handle has to unscrew backwards, but it's clearly not going to move without a lot of encouragement and it's not my reel! I decided to live with what I found, which was pretty much everything but how to get in there! The screws on the tail stock were just a bit on the tight side. With good bracing and a good fitting screwdriver, I got the "left" side open:

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Nice little ball bearings on the tail stock side. the tails stock had a guide pin, complete with a spring to pop the sideplate out when the screws were loosened...nothing in that hole, so I can't figure any purpose other than convenience in pulling the plate:
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tough little gear that meshed with the spool in a non-traditional way. Back of faceplate had a threaded access plug which just allowed one to peak in to the faceplate side, but nothing obvious to be done once it was opened. You can see the base plate for the spindle that holds three components in a stack: 1) the fixed spindle; 2) around that a shaft that has the pinion gear on the other end, to mesh with the gear that contacts the spool; and 3) outside of that was another shaft that had the handle on one end and the anti-reverse gear on the other. The drag stack, when tightened by the wheel on the grasp, marries (3) to (2), thus allowing the handle to turn the spool. that base plate has a single access screw and you can see what I believe are the ends of 6 screws that hold that base to the inner sideplate...I'm pretty sure that one screw fills an access hole to allow insertion of an instrument to hold the anti-reverse dog to the side while re-installing the gears.
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this last pic is a close-up of the three components of the drive shaft...innermost is the fixed spindle with keeper screw removed:
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Everything points to a nice piece of work by a good machinist. More later when we know something more about the maker...oh, did i mention his names was on the inside of the reel seat? :D
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Post by m3040c »

Wow, this is some piece of work. It reeks of aircraft engineering. Something tells me you have found the hidden fishing reel design of Howard Hughes. :shock:

John, has that rain floated your house out to sea :?:
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Post by john elder »

We're fine, Mike, although as you see on the news, others up North were not as fortunate. For some reason, all the weather seems to pivot at Dana Point, about 60 miles north of us...above that area, they average over 20 inches of rain a year...in San Diego, it's around 11 inches a year! ...and we had 6 inches in the last 48 hours! It will be interesting to see how the totals work out by March.
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Post by m3040c »

I am glad you are fine. I see the horrible flooding that is going on North of you. Those folks are having some bad times. I think that kind of weather would keep me from living in those areas. It would be very depressing for me to feel that a mountain of mud could slide down on me when it rains. :(
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Post by m3040c »

John,

Here's a thought.

There are two threaded holes in the handle boss that are 180 degrees apart and a threaded hole in the center of the shaft the handle is mounted onto. It looks to me that the handle is pressed on, you may be able to devise a puller to remove it, if you wanted to of course.

I know there is a unwritten rule about old things that basically says, "if it does not need to come apart, do not take it apart" but then again there is curiosity, you know, that desire that killed the cat.

I think a larger washer with holes drilled in it to match the threaded holes in the handle and a center hole for a screw that threads into the shaft hole. That plate would have to be held solid with the side screws and the center screw would then pull up the handle. That is of course, as long as there is nothing setting the handle solid. :idea:
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Post by Rick H »

I know it's the Holidays guys and therefore a time to let inhibitions go. BUT...let's not mix Vodka with Water, just because they are both clear.

The handle will come off...on it's own, when the time is right.
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Post by m3040c »

Hey Rick, its Christmas, that means we need spirit and spirits. I always leave the water out of the vodka, it only ruins it and as far as spirit, we need some spirit of adventure. So, throw caution to the wind and pull the stubborn old handle off.

What do I care, it's not my reel. :twisted: :twisted:
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Post by Rick H »

:lol: :lol: You sure yer not a NY Lawyer?
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Post by m3040c »

I wish :cry:
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Re: Incredibly neat unknown saltwater reel

Post by reeltackle »

Perhaps its just me ... perhaps its just the color scheme. You gotta admit, there are some similarities.
Just cruising old posts and thought you might enjoy this John.

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Re: Incredibly neat unknown saltwater reel

Post by m3040c »

Hello Ed,

That is a great reel but it is not a mystery. It is obviously a Fin-Norlovsky. :)
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Re: Incredibly neat unknown saltwater reel

Post by Reelholder »

Truly magnificent ingenuity...I don't know how well it operates or how easy to us it is....but, it is very complex. I wouldn't be able to put back together again...the Humpty Dumpty reel.
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