Origin of those notorious, embossed British fly reels

[Steve]

Recently, our eBay Forum included a long thread on the origin(s) of some old and not-so-old, fishing-scene-embossed, British-looking fly reels:
http://reeltalk.orcaonline.org/viewtopic.php?t=2992. New information is of sufficient interest that I thought we could continue the conversation in this forum.

Here is a photo of one such reel, sent by a member of a U.K. family that has owned the reel for over forty years:


The gentleman who sent the photo conducted a bit of research on his own, and here are the results:

A few weeks ago we were discussing whether my reel was genuine or not. Well since then I have taken the reel to a man at Reuben Heaton's, they have now moved factory to Market Bosworth. He is an avid collector of Heaton reels, he said that without question this is a Reuben Heaton reel made between 1890 and 1910, it is shown in their 1890 catalogue, of which he has a copy, as a 2.25" No.7 with Fisherman Plates and with Check. These reels sold to the trade for 30-shillings per dozen (£1.50 per 12) or ($1 per 12)...[T]hese reels [were offered] in either Silvered finish or at an additional charge of 6-shillings per 12, ...in Green Bronzed.

This information informs us of the origin of these reels. The junky, "Moscrop"-marked reels discussed on various web sites are certainly modern fakes. The only remaining question would be: Were any other reproductions of the Heaton reels made between 1910 and the last decade or so, when the obvious fakes appeared and, if so, who dunnem?

[drexelantiques]

I will be frank, you are relying on the word of a third party, the person that has the reel, and what they say they found out.

I would like to see the complete catalog, and the specific pages that show this reel, before I believe any given reel of this type might be original.

[Steve]

Jeff, we rely on third parties, and fourth parties, fifth parties, ad infinitum, for almost everything we've ever learned. Yes, it's wise to question a lot of info that comes our way, but info earns credibility when the original source is cited. That's why folks put bibliographies and citations in their writings.

In this case, the gentleman whom I quoted has seen the catalog pictures, although I haven't. But I realize that seeing a drawing or engraving in an old catalog does not necessarily enable a definitive identification of a reel you have in your hand.

The point of the post above is not that any given reel of this type is an original. The point is simply that credible evidence has been reported that Heaton made reels of this type between 1890 and 1910. Whether or not a given reel in your hand is an original is another question entirely, and you probably would not be able to make that determination based on a catalog drawing.

If you were to apply your credibility standards to all the information shared on this board, then none of the people who seek info here, registered or not, should believe anything they read in replies to their questions, unless the replier posts a copy of an original source.

While we're on the subject: We all now know about the "Moscrop"-marked fakes. But what evidence do we have that any other versions of these types of reels deserve to be labeled as fakes?

And for dessert, some additional bits about the Heaton catalog:

...the catalogue, which is also very rare, as these were all hand illustrated, there would have been only four or five made each year and these were kept at the factory where prospective customers would come to browse prior to purchase...photocopies of pages from their 1890 catalogue, two of which are price lists showing their No.1 to No.11 and No.55 to No.64 reels, on which it offers these reels in either Silvered finish or at an additional charge of 6-shillings per 12, they can be had in Green Bronzed.

[Teal]

Steve is entirely correct. As a dedicated researcher and historian, he has spent now three decades studying reels in all their permutations. He does not make any claims about the "final authority" on these reels, however since he is in a better position than most to make a call on the credibility of the information, he has obviously found the source reliable.

When I call Steve and ask him a question, I don't have to ask for verification because I know and trust the source. Clearly Steve found the information and its source to be trustworthy (and I don't think any one has ever used the world "gullible" or "naive" in connection with Mr. Vernon), and decided to share it.

Jeff, you are completely entitled to your burden of proof. As for me, I don't see anything to make me question the veracity of the information Steve passed along.

My 2 cents.

Cheers,

Dr. Todd

[Paul M]

When we were discussing this type of reel in the e-Bay forum, there were at least two other observations from different people that also lead to Heaton.

Ron Mc observed that there were artisan marks inside my Fisherman Scene reel, just like on other Heaton reels.

That got me curious , so I searched for info about Heaton on the internet. Here is a URL that shows some of the company history:http://www.reubenheaton.co.uk/history.asp

While I did not find anything directly about the fisherman scene reels, this remark caught my interest: "The name Heaton was well known in Birmingham, with family members involved with the Birmingham Mint."

That made an interesting coincidence because SWIM JIG had pointed out that contrary to the "engraved fisherman scene" description given by the seller of my reel, it is actually a pressed design.

The Reuben Heaton company had the kind of specialized experience needed to make the fisherman scene on these reels.

BTW - two more of these types of reels recently sold. One for US$314 and one for just US$75 (Respectively, e-Bay #6613601660 & #7227092663)

[Ron Mc]

In the late 19th century, Reuben Heaton Company was the largest tackle maker in the UK.

By WWI, S. Allcock Company was catching up.

[Stu Lawson]

I BUY FAKE REELS - Let me know what you have for sale. THANKS !

Maybe I'll do a fake reel price guide someday.

STU LAWSON


yay-banana

[drexelantiques]

Steve, no, what you have is someone claiming to have an explanation, with no proof of such. This catalog has not been published for others to see and evaluate. it doesn't explain the hundreds of reels showing up in English antique dealers inventories, and on the internet.

[Steve]

Jeff:

The point of the post above is not that any given reel of this type is an original. The point is simply that credible evidence has been reported that Heaton made reels of this type between 1890 and 1910.

Let's assume that you're correct about "hundreds of reels" showing up in the collectibles market. What conclusions can you draw about these reels, based on numbers alone? (And your estimate of "hundreds" is based on--what?)

Several possibilities spring to mind, the most obvious two being (1) that most or all of these reels are "fakes," or (2) that someone made a lot of "originals." Finding a reel of this type in an old catalog would indicate only that someone--Heaton, in this case--made a reel of this type in the dim recesses of the past. Was this the first of this type of reel? We don't know. Was it the last, discounting the obvious "Moscrop" fakes? We don't know. How many did they make? We don't know. One thing is clear, though: There's no justification whatsoever for labeling these reels as "fakes" simply because there are "hundreds" of them.

Using the same criterion, we would have to apply the "fake" label to a lot of different models of J. Vom Hofe reels, to a gazillion brass ball handles, to a gazillion more Kopf reels, etc., etc., that were made over long periods and that show variations from reel to reel.

Given the fact that we know someone has built fakes of this type recently, it's good to be on guard when we encounter these things. However, it's a disservice to owners and to the collecting fraternity to brand all of these reels as fakes because there are more of them than we feel there should be. If you have any credible evidence that these things are fakes--alloy analyses, records from some shop that reproduced them in the 1950s, convincing variations of construction, whatever--please let us hear about it.

[Paul M]

Below is an extremely useful e-mail I just received from the managing director of the current Reuben Heaton company about these fisherman scene reels. I have asked a couple more questions to try and sort out the confusion over different versions and will post the repsonse separately, if I get a response.

=============================

From:
03/27/2006 03:38 AM

Dear Mr Manuel,

The reel shown in your picture was indeed made by Heaton's, and we have catalogue evidence of this.

The reel you have is simply catalogued as a model number 6 silvered reel with fisherman plates, and appears in the company's from around 1880 to 1910. The reel was also available with a constant check as model no 7, and this model was available green bronzed at extra cost. The reel was made in sizes from 1 3/4 inches up to 2 1/2 inches and cost from between 16/- and 30/- per dozen dependant on size.

The fisherman plates also appear in the catalogue attached to both platewind and multiplier versions of reels, suggesting that the fisherman plate itself could be attached to many reels of the correct diameter. Nowhere does the reel appear as a Day & Night reel, this name will probably come from one of the many Heaton's customers who will have applied their own name, but it is not a Heaton's name.

The Strike From The Winch patent 3250 refers to a mechanism designed to act on the centre spindle of a reel to give a simple drag effect. The patent was taken out in 1884, and consists of a simple grub screw arrangement. The first screw is tightened down onto the spindle to give the required pressure (drag), and this is locked in place with a second screw. The mechanism housing is shown in various forms, but all are located on the opposite side of the reel to the handle in the centre of the reel.

The patent was never applied to your reel as far as we know. It was reserved for larger more expensive reels, and not applied to basic check winches.

regards
Andrew Race
Managing Director


----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Manuel
To:
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 5:33 AM
Subject: Seeking info re patent 3250 Strike From The Winch Reel - 1884

I am a fishing tackle collector and am researching an old fishing reel probably made by the Heaton company in the late 1800s. It is a very controversial brass winch called a "Day & NIght" reel, picture attached, with the pressed scene of a fisherman. I ran across a remark on your website that references an old patent: #3250 Strike From The Winch Reel – 1884. I have been unable to figure out how to find a copy of that patent on the UK patent office website. Perhaps someone there would know about this reel or the patent.
Sincerely,

Paul Manuel
Toronto, Canada.

[drexelantiques]

Steve, my apologies, you are correct.

At the same time, though, you can't label all of them as real just because they haven't been proven as fakes.

Some years back I was talking with an English Antique dealer who brings containers of furniture and etc. in from England.

One thing he does is as he is loading the furniture he stuffs drawers and crannies in the container with small antiques and reproductions. He usually manages to find some fishing tackle. Mostly junk, but I have bought some real jewels from him as this stuff is secondary to the real antiques he deals in.

Over a couple of years he had 3-4 of these reels, I thought they were fakes, but I finally asked him what he knew of them. He said they had been showing up for years on the English Antique Market, and that they were made in Pakistan. I asked how he knew that and he told me he had bought some himself in Pakistan when on a buying trip.

I think I saw a marked Heaton reel in one of the recent tackle auctions. I will see what I can find.

[Steve]

Jeff, apologies are absolutely unnecessary. We're having an argument about reels, fer cryin' out loud. It's obvious that you have some underlying reasons to be so skeptical about the origin of these reels, and I'm just trying to point out that those reasons are unclear to me.

It would benefit all of us if we could see some pics of the particular reels your contact found in Pakistan, especially if they are different from the "Moscrop" fakes. As mentioned above, it's sensible to look at all of these reels with a bit of skepticism, but until we see what the alleged fakes look like, how can we make an educated determination? It's true that "you can't label all of them as real just because they haven't been proven as fakes", but it's also true that you can't label all of them as fakes just because they haven't been proven as real. Based on what we're learning about Heaton, I would tend to give these things the benefit of the doubt.

[Ron Mc]

I realize the context is frauds or reproductions made in Pakistan, but it is certainly possible to find true antique/vintage UK reels in India and Pakistan.
The Army & Navy Co-operative Society Ltd., was established (1871) to provide sporting arms, fishing tackle, whiskey, all necessities for civilized life, and even groceries to Royal Navy, Marines and British Army stationed in the east.
The trade was also immediately reversed. Brass workers in Pakistan and India saw the reels that the British brought along, and began making copies for sale to other British anglers, and those reels began making their way back to the UK.
And back to the context, there are also frauds of those old India reels being made today in India.

oh, this is cool, 1939 Army & Navy Stores catalog:

[el Lawrence]

Good point Ron, I partiularly like the Hunting and Fishing Requisites... I need some requisites for my tacklebox.

I HOPE someone is collecting all this information up as we have almost chatted a books worth already on these reels.

Having seen what I would judge to be both fakes and real of this particular reel I would venture that it was a popular reel once when first produced. Nice looking and somewhat cheap (judging from the letters above). That would account for a good number of them to be around. Later as the nice looking fishing collectable they were knocked off —by who knows, I have heard India, as well as other places... as sited above no one seems to have any leads on the knock offs. You would think as what seems to be a popular decorator item someone would have seen them in a decorators catalog or similar souce. That would account for pushing up the numbers... and on the third leg of this in the recently sited book similar reels were suppose to have been made in the US in the late 1800s (then possible rip-offs of the first English version of the reel. A practice that was then not uncommon).
Could be the source of so many variations... pure speculation on my part that.

However having had what I suppose to be one of the modern fakes and what I believe to be an older "vintage" reel in my own hands for examination (I own what I am highly confident is a real version of the reel) I could see a big diffrence. It is GOOD for us to be careful of these reels... 20/20 hindsite I should have bid and bought the obvious fake so more could examine it and maybe find its origin. This doesn't however make them all fakes... more likely a once popular item that has now been copied. Similar to copper dive helmets or other nautical items. There are real ones out there... and fakes. So be careful.

By the by... Day and Night is in referance to the pin or rivit that appears in the sky on one side and not the other (your call on which is day and which is night). As far as I know it IS a term applied to the reel by the public. Similar to "Reel as big as your head" is used in reference to large salt reels. Collectors' code for "one of those reels with the fisherman on it that causes so much debate..."

[Paul M]

Truth in advertising:

http://cgi.ebay.ca/FISHING-SCENE-BRASS- ... dZViewItem



Paul M

[el Lawrence]

Well, Stu should put a bid in on that one as he says above he DOES buy fakes.

Three cheers for this seller... no "I'm not sure, it could be, look at the photos and make up your own mind" for this guy/gal. Takes the bull by the horns and says it's a fake and a dang nice one to boot. How refreshing!

Ok if you give it a look (nice handle not withstanding) you can see the sort of puffed or bloated effect the details have... the fisherman looks a bit like a relation of the Pilsburry Doughboy. The rod appears to be PVC pipe not bamboo... No spotty wear, no variations of fine patina on the surface. No marks that the reel was fished. Yes I would say this is a MODERN repro. of the earlier reel(s). Not the craftsmanship of the Victorian age. Dang... wish I had a few extra to bid this one for demo use. I would make a display for Nationals...

BTW I have seen modern repros that infact look even less like the real reel... On them you could see that the modern brass has a granular or grainy rough look where as old cast or well cast brass is fine and smooth... particularly on places like the foot or inside where modern fakers don't want to bother with clean up of the molds, etc. Can't tell on this one... it is sort of a hand feel thing and would need more than photos...

Did anyone email the seller to find out where he/she came by this one? A field find or out of a catalog somewhere?

[Paul M]

I sent the seller a note asking about where the reel came from. The two features that strike me most are the poor alignment of the sideplate with the spool and the super thick foot.

[Robin Sayler]

I didn't see the foot till you mentioned it. It looks like a chunk of copper pipe it's so thick! let us know what they have to say about it

[Paul M]

I found a Christmas present in my e-mail inbox this morning. yay-banana Back in March, I posted correspondance from Heaton's. I was hoping to get more info and wrote another e-mail to Mr. Race to see if I could get an image from one of the old catalogs. To my absolute delight, I received a very generous response this morning, including scans from select pages in the old catalogs showing fisherman plate reels. Copy of the e-mail is shown below without the attachment. (I am trying to determine whether or not I can post the attachment on this site or perhaps provide it for publication in the Reel News or through the ORCA library). Mr. Race has asked for our help in getting pictures of old Heaton reels and information of interest. I am sure we can help him out.

===================
To: Paul Manuel
Sent: Dec 22, 2006 6:34am
From:


Paul,

I have included with this e-mail a small presentation based around the Fisherman Plate reels. We do not give out any colour copies or scans of the old catalogues any more as there have been reproductions made of these in the past. We will be producing a compilation of Heaton's catalogues at some time in the future along with a history of the company, and details of this will emerge on the web site as we near completion. I have been attempting to compile the history of the company since I purchased it, but there are still many grey areas especially the earliest years from 1857 to 1890 where much of the detail is lost. If any of your collegues have reels etc any information regarding sales abroad, I would like to hear from them.
I have visited the ORCA site and read with interest the discussion re the Fisherman Plate reels. There have been many copies of this reel most of them recent and easily identifiable as such,especially the Moscrop version. The idea that early copies could have been made around the turn of the century though is definitely a possibility, I mean we didn't invent copies in today's age, they have been around as long as the first idea.

As regards actual manufacture of the Fisherman plate reels, the Heaton's catalogues invariably have written statements in them testifying to the fact that all products contained within the catalogue are warranted as made by the company. In the case of the early factory copies though, there is little text to this effect, and I suspect that a lot of the rods, nets etc were out sourced by the company. However the Fisherman plate reels are the same design as some of the standard patterns elsewhere in the catalogue which we know were made by Heaton's, the only variation being the embossed plate itself (quite possibly supplied by the Mint). Therefore I can say that there is not much doubt that Heaton's were the makers of this product.

I hope this information is of help.

regards

Andrew Race
Managing Director

Text from attachment:

The following items have been taken from the hand painted catalogue (circa 1890 –1900) held by the company (fig 1). This catalogue was one of only a hand full of copies that were made for product illustration, to demonstrate the manufacturing capabilities of the company when prospective customers would arrive at the factory. By 1914, many products old fashioned items and accessories including rods, lures, some landing nets and gaffs and the picture reels have been dropped from the catalogue. This is not to say that they were no longer made, but evidence of their manufacture along with the other items dropped during this period is very scarce.

Reuben Heaton (the1st), started the business in 1857 using monies given to him by hisfather, who was part of the Heaton’s dynasty running the Birmingham Mint (Heaton’s Pennies are very scarce and collectable). It is not impossible therefore that the embossed fisherman plates were made by the mint and or Heaton’s using machinery or services provided by the Mint and you will see from the pictures included that other reels had engraved or embossed decoration. The Victoria reel is probably the most ornate reel in the catalogue.


For further interest I have included pictures of the Victoria Reel and because I have never seen one,a picture of the Kentucky reel. If any of your collecting colleagues have a picture of this reel or indeed any Heaton’s reels then I would be happy to receive them.Please note that I have included all photos as black and white copies. In the past colour pictures and scans have been sent out in good faith only to be reproduced for financial gain. The original catalogues are due for print and release at some point in the future and this will be announced on the web site.

[ I hope to make the scans available for all to see- they are great!]

Merry Christmas to all!

Paul M

[RAM]

Paul-I have a beautiful (and tiny) Reuben Heaton fly reel circa 1890. I will make a pic or two and email. Should they be sent to you or the Heaton address?
Bad Bob

[Paul M]

I'd love to see that reel Bad Bob. I think it would be nice if we could all see pictures of Heaton reels on this site. We can start a Heaton Reels topic on the Show and Tell section, unless somebody has a better idea. Any high resolution images you want to contribute to Heaton's information gathering effort should probably be directed right to Mr. Andrew Race at

[Paul M]

Andrew Race, Managing Director of Reuben Heaton Ltd, has generously provided me with scans showing sections from late 19th century Reuben Heaton catalogs. They show various fisherman scene reels as well as many other fascinating reel sketches and price lists. The following information is made available to all ORCA members with the permission of Mr. Race. On behalf of all ORCA members, thank you, sir!

Here is the link:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/pmanuel/PICS_O ... _Reels.pdf


Heaton will be posting more historical information in the future. Here are their current coordinates:

Reuben Heaton Ltd, Unit 1, Station Road Industrial Estate, Market Bosworth, Nuneaton, Warwickshire, CV13 0PE Tel: 01455 293 000, Fax: 01455 293 330, Email: http://www.reubenheaton.co.uk[/url]

[reelsmith.]

The pictures of the Kentucky Reel and the ball-handle on the last page are VERY interesting. That opens up possibilities for a 'hole 'nuther thread!

Dean.

[DoctorFly]

Looks like this reel has now appeared on UK ebay

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... &rd=1&rd=1

Is it the same one?

Regards.

Doc

[Paul M]

I find it fascinating that it looks so similar to my reel but has numerous details that are different, including:

Numerous subtle differences in the scenes on both sides. The elements from the pictures are the same but they are in slightly different positions and obviously from different engravings used to press the side plates.

The cross bars on mine have slotted screwheads on one side and lathed points on the other end. The one in the auction has rivet-like crossbars.

The curve in the handle is in opposite directions (easy to flip over so that is not a big deal).

The screws holding the reel foot are different.

The reel foot is different, although this one seems more like the way it ought to be.

Steve posted pictures of my reel and another similar reel at the link below. You will note that the picture in the auction is identical to Reel#1. Mine is the reel marked #2.

http://orcaonline.org/images/pixel.gif?afr&embossed.jpg

I posted a copy of the Heaton illustrations provided by Andrew Race but I don't think they don't cover this level of detail.

Paul M