OK, here's one for the learned peanut gallery. What's the first reel to use precision ball bearings? It has to be post-1924 when the first precision ball bearing was machined and ground (3/8 of an inch!).
So any guesses as to which reel first used them? I ask because I'm writing a short article on the company that made precision ball bearings for fishing reels, and because the first reel I can remember using that had ball bearings was my dad's original Ambassadeur 5000 (early 1950s). I know by 1947 that fishing reels were a big market for precision ball bearings...
The early Ambassadeur 5000s didn't have ball bearings, they had bronze bushings. The first Ambassadeur reel to have ball bearings was the Ambassadeur 5000 Deluxe which came out in 1962. These were special gold plated presentation reels made in limitied quantities. The first full production Ambassadeur with ball bearings was the Ambassadeur 5000C which came out in 1966. Randy Heller
Stefan, weren't he first perfects "eunuch"s? I.e., no ball bearings? - oops, never mind...
I received this reply:
fishinbanjo wrote: Hi,
Thanks for the note, I hadn't seen your post yet. According to Drewett Book Forster Hardy worked on a reel with patent #18373 (Dec 17 1888) which had 7 balls on one side of the drum periphery and 8 on the other side. While the reel had some remarkable workmanship and quality it didn't operate as smoothly as was expected. Supposedly in 1889 Mr Hardy realized he was on the wrong track and repositioned the balls in a raceway on one side of the reel (i.e. like current ball bearings) applied for, and received patent # 612 on 13 Jan 1891 which was accepted on 25 April that year. Soon to follow was the New Patent Perfect. I hope this helps.
This web site is rapidly becoming my favorite place on the web.
Thanks Stefan for the info...I appreciate how willing you always are to share in your vast knowledge.
Steve,
in 1924 Winslow S. Pierce, Jr. pioneered a method of machining tiny radial ball bearings to incredibly high tolerances; it was later improved on so that bearings .011 in outside diameter were machined to a tolerance of one-quarter of one ten thousandth (plus or minus .000025). This was the first time in history that such bearings were produced on a mass scale (I believe jewel bearings were commonly used before this). The steel balls and raceways were machined from miniature chrome bearing steel stock as small as 1/8" to similar specs. This was the revolution in ball bearing assemblies that was used in the Bendix gyro fluxgate compass, Polaroid inclinometer, Sperry gyroscope, and hundreds of other precision instruments, including fishing reels. Pierce's company was the only one in the world (at least until the late 1940s) to produce these micro ball bearing assemblies; the sold to numerous companies as well as the U.S. Navy and other government agencies.
My interest is as follows:
1) When did ball bearing assemblies first get used in reels? According to Stefan, it appears ball bearing assemblies were used in 1891.
2) When did micro ball bearing assemblies first get used in reels? I imagine you could define micro ball bearings as 1/16" and smaller in diameter. Or ones machined of this size from chrome bearing stock.
Todd, you're asking several different questions. I interpret them as:
1. Have any reels used ball bearings made to the precision that the Pierce method provides? (Frankly, I don't know why there would be a need for such precision.) If so, when?
2. When were reels first equipped with small ball bearings? If you mean that the Pierce method produces 1/16" bearings, I doubt any reel has ever used bearings that small. If you mean that the balls in the bearings were 1/16" diameter, your guess is as good as mine. Maybe the Perfect was the first. (To clarify, the Latin for "Eunuch" is "Uniqua," which was a later reel, as Stefan indicated.) You would have to get into some reels and measure stuff.
Teal: you need to look at the story of the Gulf Reel Co. of Texas. They built a reel company due to having millions of ball bearing units left over after the end of WWII. Colby Sorrells wrote an excellent article about the company for The Reel News several years ago. They predate Ambassadeurs, but were certainly not the first. The bearings they used were small enough that they were even used on the level wind worm gear.
Let me get this straight! Bald Bearings? Well, from pictures I have seen, Columbus didn't have much hair and he looked at the stars to know where he was going or where he came from. Can I conclude that this was a form of "Bald Bearings"? Also, can I, ----Ah---, Never mind!
Harvey Latella wrote:Let me get this straight! Bald Bearings? Well, from pictures I have seen, Columbus didn't have much hair and he looked at the stars to know where he was going or where he came from. Can I conclude that this was a form of "Bald Bearings"? Also, can I, ----Ah---, Never mind!
While trying to find information on Indiana style reels labeled as "Nice" reels, I discovered that this was in fact not a reel company, but a ball bearing manufacturer. In August 2002, they celebrated 100 years in business, and offered a little history:
In 1902, William Nice Jr. founded the Pressed Steel Manufacturing Company, subcontracting ball bearings made from sheet steel, with the company name changing to Nice Ball Bearing Company in 1914. after WW1, Nice built a factory on a 187-acre section of Philadelphia, deeded to the Nice family in 1699 by William Penn.
With its 2002 Centenial celebration, Nice is also claiming to be the oldest surviving antifriction bearing manufacturer in the US.
However, it's likely that Nice is the oldest surviving ball bearing manufacturer, with Timken as the U.S. industry's oldest surviving manufacturer. Henry Timken's first two patents were awarded in 1898; the Timken Roller Bearing Axle Company was founded in 1899. Timken subcontracted all manufacturing until its first plant opened on Dec 2nd, 1901, putting it in bearing manufacturing a few short months ahead of Nice.
Two other candidates are close runners-up for age: Splitdorf (acquired by Torrington in 1912) aquired a ball bearing compay sometime shortly after 1902. Bantam Ball Bearing Company (also later acquired by Torrington) began operations in 1905. I'm always on the lookout for any paperwork that would tie in the reel makers to the bearing comanys, but requests to the Nice company (now a division of RBC bearings) have fallen on deaf ears.
I have several Indiana reels with Nice products clearly marked, yet no name on the reels themselves.
The search, for me at least, continues!
Jim S
Thanks for the heads up--if these were the same precision ball bearings used in military aircraft during the war, they were almost certainly made by Pierce. I will track down a copy of the article.
Steve,
That's as good of a way to divide up the questions as any. As for question 1, that is the main question I am trying to find out. All I know is that the company noted that making bearing assemblies for fishing reels was significant enough to mention in their promotional materials...which models of reels used these bearings is basically what I'm trying to establish. I did not say that any reels used 1/16th inch bearings, although I imagine that newer reels use 1/8th or 3/16th inch bearing assemblies--I will try and email Daiwa as their website shows several new models utilizing ball bearings and maybe they can send some specs.
Ball bearing manufacturers on the Web show micro bearings from 3mm up to 26mm. As for why this method of precision is necessary, certainly it had to do with wear, as chrome bearing steel is still preferred today for longevity (although stainless is used where saltwater may corrode the machine). Tolerance is everything in bearings, even minute variation in the steel balls in a single row bearing assembly would cause significant degradation in a very short time. Pierce's method allowed for far greater tolerance, and when refined after WWII made for tolerances not possible even during the war itself.
The big question, of course, is who would need these highly precise bearing assemblies? Anyone?
2) As for the first reel to use ball bearings, I leave that to the reel experts to decide, and hopefully someone will write an article about it (if they already haven't). It seems clear by 1900 that some reel makers were working with bearing assemblies, but that is less important to me than figuring out what reels would need such highly precisioned bearing assemblies in the late 1940s. If Gulf Reels were using ball bearing assemblies, presumably others were as well. We know by 1962 Ambassadeur was as well.
Mysteries, mysteries, mysteries. I feel the same sense of mystery as when I'm talking with Bob "Pflueger Pfanatic" Miller about the E.A. Pflueger company!
Okay. No answer really on the first BB reel (noted though that that guy in Hawaii had a one-way roller clutch in his dual drag disc reel in the um, '20's?)
Anyway, just wanted to ask Teal and Jim where Sven Winquist and SKF fit into the picture. (Oh wait... the semispherical housing radial BB assembly, was that it?)
And anecdotally / footnotally, didn't DaVinci have a ball bearing spindle in one of his sketchbooks? Just imagine what would've happened if that guy was into reels...
I think I saw an antique vintage collectable DaVinci fishing reel on eBay...user ID MOSCROPUSAREELS1. Was given to the seller by his Uncle who got it from an Indian dealership in the 1920s.
Seriously, DaVinci's thinking was probably further ahead of his era than almost anyone who ever lived. Too bad my students blew the exam question on the Renaissance.
I believe evolution is at work in the reel industry. If you want to see the Abec spec's for bearings go to the boca bearing site. These are standard spec's recognized world wide.
It is my understanding that most quality reels having bearings produced today start with
Abec 5 bearings. The guys who want better move up to Abec 7 and I understand reel fanatics, distance casters, go to Abec 9. I've read many testemonials declaring the improved performance of reels upgraded in this fashion.
As of late hybrid bearings are the hot number. Ceramic and stainless steel or ceramic and carbon steel. Evolution again. We do it because we can. Though the gains are reduced to smaller incriments we are still gaining on the contest with friction.
Whew ! I almost fell off the box ! LOL...
My geezer memory failed to mention A. F. Meisselbach's patent for ball bearings in his wood and brass bank reel. It was from 1897, and the reel was manufactured for the next 20 years by Meisselbach, and then Cozzone.
In the last several weeks I have acquired two ocean trolling reels. The first was a Ted Williams made by Shakespeare in 1963 and the second was a Shakespeare Wonder Troll #30, also made in 1963. Both reels have the same exact bearings with the number 1602 DS maked on them. Upon some investigation I found that the bearings were made by Nice. The bearing size is .250" x .6875" x .250". Nice still makes this bearing with the same number but the double letter designation is now 1602 ZZ. I am not 100% sure but I believe the DS designation meant "double shielded" which is what the modern ZZ designation stands for. Randy
Richie, Phil, Randy, Dr. Rob, Ron, Harvey, Jim, Steve, Stefan, et al.,
Once again, you have all outdone yourself. Thank you for lending knowledge so freely, you are a credit to ORCA and this site. How fun it is to actually converse with people without having the word "dollar" or "value" enter the conversation.
I'll keep digging and see if I can come up with anything else.
