Billinghurst Fly Reel With Box & Paperwork

[reeltackle]

Does anyone have a box lid for a Billinghurst fly reel? Also looking for a live dodo bird or a Bigfoot. Well I guess half a box is better than no box at all but ..... I sure wish it was the other half of the box.

On the plus side -

The reel is coin silver and came with the original paperwork. Has anyone (Jim S.) ever seen this piece of paper before?

All in all a pretty good day.

















Also in the box was a clipping from a January 1866 newspaper concerning fly fishing for trout -

[john elder]

Incredible! What a find, Ed!

[Mike N]

Incredible that the Billinghurst & Green paper survived in tact and I really love the line on the reel.

Congratulations on a great find, Ed! I can’t wait to see it in person in Daytona next year.

PS if I find a Billinghurst lid floating around, I’ll ship it.

Mike N

[joe klaus]

Congratulations Ed! You have a wowser.

[Paul M]

This is the first time I have ever heard of “Billinghurst & Green”. That partnership name does not appear anywhere in prior Reel Talk posts or in the FRR pages. I did not see it on Jim’s site either. Great find!

[Steve]

There was a gunsmith named Charles Green in Rochester, but I've never found a tie-in of him or any other Green with Billinghurst through 1880, when B. died.

[reelsmith.]

Very Cool !

Dean.

[Ron Mc]

after 120 years or so, the original container is worth as much as the contents

[RAM]

Difficult to imagine a cooler find. Congrats! Would love to see it!

Bad Bob

[Jim Schottenham]

Does anyone have a box lid for a Billinghurst fly reel?

I do, but it'll cost ya!

Has anyone (Jim S.) ever seen this piece of paper before?

Nope. That is a very important, significant find!!

All in all a pretty good day

I'd say so!
I can't help but wonder if the Green mentioned on the paper is Seth Green, not Charles Green (he was the Rochester gunsmith Steve mentioned - and though his shop was listed on Main st., it was a different house number), given that Seth used Billinghurst reels in the early days of casting competitions.
Awesome find Ed - congrats!

[reeltackle]

Thanks to all for their nice comments.

The article that came in the box with the reel and papers is dated January 30, 1866. The name of the newspaper the article was taken from can not be determined as the newspaper's name was not clipped along with the article. There are several advertisements on the back that have street names and names of businesses but no mention of the city ... which makes sense because for businesses advertising in a local paper they would not need to include the city in their address. The article states that it was written by Stephen H. Ainsworth of West Bloomfield, on December, 25, 1865. A Christmas well spent if you ask me.

Having had time to digest the article I have found that it is not so much about trout fishing as it is raising trout for trout fishing. The article goes into lengthy detail about three ponds built on a privately owned stream outside of Springwater, New York. The ponds were purchased for the purposes of raising trout. The author goes into a minutia of detail describing the bottom of the ponds, how they are fed by fresh water, the temperature of the water (year round) and the numbers of trout that have been successfully raised there, 100,000 trout weighing at least 2 pounds in just a few short years. All very interesting but how does any of this relate to the reel?

Just a little further in to the article and we hit pay-dirt for us collectors types. The article states - "Seth Green Esq., the celebrated marksman and fly-thrower of Rochester, bought this creek a year ago last fall for the purpose of growing trout artificially as well as naturally on an extensive scale." Ahhhh ... and now we know who Mr. Green of Billinghurst & Green is!

The article states that Mr. Green paid a handsome sum of $8,500 for his stretch of stream. That's one heck of a lot of money back in the day. So I guess we can assume that Seth Green Esq. is pretty well healed. The author also states that - "I am certain that this is the largest and finest exhibition of trout in America and probably in the whole world." So I guess we can also assume that Mr. Green was pretty darn good at raising trout and that, as odd as it may sound, Springwater, New York might have been the trout fishing capitol of the world back in 1866.

The article goes on to talk about how Mr. Green would bottle up his little trout on the 8th to 15th day of impregnation and ship them out express to any part of the country. And all this without Fed-Ex or UPS overnight service, because it absolutely, positively has to be there overnight! The article also states - "That well impregnated spawn can be obtained as low as $10.00 per thousand."

For those of you who would like to see this stream or perhaps find out more information about Seth Green Esq. or perhaps even try and run down some of his tackle here is a great clue for you from the article. - "Seth Green's residence and ponds are located near the highway leading from Caledonia Village to Mumford Village, three quarters of a mile from Caledonia, and one quarter of a mile from Mumford. There is an express passing his place from every train of cars passing Caledonia on the Canandaigua and Batavia Branch of the New York Central Railroad, and the Corning and Buffalo Branch of the New York Cental railroad, making his place of very easy access from either railroad, and all parts of the country. His post office address is Mumford, Monroe County, N.Y.".

I would be high speeding down the highway with a GPS, a pocket full-o-cash, some old railroad maps and a shovel if I lived anywhere near that area. Perhaps the Green residence is still standing and the basement is loaded with Billinghurst boxes and paperwork. So the hunt is on! Let me know who gets there first and what you find when you get there!

[colby sorrells]

You could also buy your Billinghurst & Green reel in Louisville, KY in 1860




From the April 30, 1860 issue of the Louisville Daily Courier

The newspaper with the Ainsworth article is the Thursday Evening February 1, 1866 edition of
the Buffalo Commercial Advertiser Buffalo, NY

Mr. Ainsworth was a nursery man selling fruit trees and a little later he created a trout egg box and promoted raising trout. Several articles by and about him in the era.

Keepin' It Fun!

Colby

[Mike N]

Nice find, Colby. Just good stuff.

As I always say, give me 10 fishing reel collectors with Google on their desktop and some intellectual curiosity, and we could conquer the world.

Mike N.

[reeltackle]

Very cool Colby, great sleuthing!

Now, the big question. What was the relationship between Mr. Billinghurst and Mr. Green? What did Mr. Green contribute to the project that warranted his name on the paper next to Mr. Billinghurst’s name?

Billinghurst was the expert machinist and had money to finance the project ... so why Billinghurst & Green? According to the article Green was a “celebrated marksman and fly-thrower”. Perhaps it was the 1860’s version of a sporting celebrity endorsement.

I think more likely the reel was the celebrated fly-thrower’s brainchild and Mr. Billinghurst brought it to life ... kinda like Boschen and Julius vom Hofe’s B-Ocean reel .... so this would be the G-reel or G-reenl or G-reeln or some such nonsense. I guess simply, Billinghurst & Green, sounds much better.

Is there any evidence that Billinghurst was a fisherman? If not, why build, or even think of building reels.

Anywho, just a couple of theories I thought I’d toss out there. What do you guys think? Any other ideas?

[Steve]

The Holy Greel!

You could also buy your Billinghurst & Green reel in Louisville, KY in 1860

[Steve]

Is there any evidence that Billinghurst was a fisherman?

Seems pretty likely. Jim Wheeler pointed out (Reel News, July, 2004, pp. 16-17) that B. left a large inventory of reels and reel parts. He also left lots of knives, forks, and spoons..and we're almost certain that he ate. The guy was around 50 when he invented his reel, and it's hard to imagine his getting into reel production without some inspiration gained from experience.

[colby sorrells]

The Big Reel man from fishing paradise speaks the truth.

The June 21, 1862 issue of the Evening Courier and Republic, Buffalo, NY reported Seth Green participated in the States Sportsman’s Club contest in Rochester, NY. It also mentions this event was the “Throwing of the Fly and Final Shooting Match”. Seth Green won the state prize at the event for “Best general excellence in the use of the rod”. One of the two umpires for the event was William Billinghurst.

The June 5, 1874 issue of the Democrat and Chronicle of Rochester , NY discussed a shooting event where one contestant used a Billinghurst rifle and the other contestant could not use a Billinghurst rifle. Similar to the first fishing tournament between Decker and Jamison. Mr. Billinghurst appears to have been more interested in the shooting sports than the angling sports.

Seth Green was no doubt much more widely known than Mr. Billinghurst. Green was referred to as the “Father of Fishes” and “Father of Fish Culture”. He was THE Rock Star at the time the reel was made. The July 16, 1933 issue of the Democrat and Chronicle of Rochester, NY includes a full page article on Mr. Green which includes several photos of him and his contemporaries, and also includes a fairly complete bio. Having Seth Green as a partner in a fledging fishing tackle company would have certainly helped the success of the product.

And finally one from the May 19, 1860 issue of the Louisville Daily Courier for my learned mentor from the northeast



Keepin' It Fun!

Colby

[reeltackle]

Seems pretty likely. Jim Wheeler pointed out (Reel News, July, 2004, pp. 16-17) that B. left a large inventory of reels and reel parts. He also left lots of knives, forks, and spoons..and we're almost certain that he ate. The guy was around 50 when he invented his reel, and it's hard to imagine his getting into reel production without some inspiration gained from experience.

I'm not so sure that leaving a large inventory of reel parts behind makes you a fisherman. Everyone has to eat so they leave behind knives, forks and spoons, however, one does not have to fish to leave behind fishing reel parts, one only has to make fishing reels to do that.

I'm also not so sure that making fishing reels necessarily means that you have to have any fishing experience. Fred Grieten did not fish, but the folks who did fish knew that he had the skills to make a fishing reel, hence the Fin-Nor reel. Roswell Lee was one heck of a tennis player but when I interviewed him he told me he never went fishing, yet, there exists a Lee's reel. I'll even go so far as saying that the majority of shops around the world that manufacture products are making them for someone else and to their designs or specs. I could go on and on (and sometimes I do).

Heck, it's kinda like saying that because you are a fishing tackle collector you have to be a fisherman. I know a lot of collectors who don't fish.

Again, I think this is where Green came in, why else would you add Green's name to the advertising. He was obviously one heck of a fisherman, the best "fly-thrower" in the country. I'm sure he had some grand ideas on what his perfect fantasy reel would look like and accomplish. Green also has gobs of money so he most likely sought out the best machinist he could find and together they made his dream reel a reality, hence, Billinghurst & Green. I think Green was the fellow with the idea and Billinghurst was the man to build the reel.

Colby, again some Homeric sleuthing on your part. It is great to see how this story is coming together, I only provide the speculation, you provide the facts.

The more you read about Green the more accomplished a fellow you find out he is. I have no doubt that he had some sort of "perfect" reel in mind. I know there are always some improvements I would like to add to one of my reels or even have one made custom.

So we find out that Billinghurst was an official and not so interested in angling sports. Like the old saying goes. Those who can't do, officiate.

I do have one question regarding the add at the bottom of your post. What the heck is "1 do do Conroy reel". Were the Conroy reels of the day looked down on so much that they were considered pieces of s#*t. I mean who would buy one if they were that bad and why even bother to advertise them in the first place.

[colby sorrells]

Ed,
I take the "do do" as meaning ditto or same as above. So it would say "1 dozen fine Conroy Reels".

Keepin' It Fun! ( or funny in this example)

Colby

[Jim Schottenham]

A few thoughts on the subject:

So we find out that Billinghurst was an official and not so interested in angling sports. Like the old saying goes. Those who can't do, officiate.

Alonzo Flower was also an official at many a casting tournament in the day, and he was a maker, inventor and angler - avid in all those fields. I'd place Billinghurst as an outdoorsman, not necessarily as angler or hunter only.

I think Green was the fellow with the idea and Billinghurst was the man to build the reel.

In most all cases, the man (or woman) that came up with the idea, I.E. the inventor, submitted a patent idea to the patent office to protect said idea/invention. If Green had come up with the design himself, he most certainly would have submitted his idea to the patent office, then contracted with Billinghurst to build the reels. A few examples include the next patented side-mount reel, the 1866 Anson Hatch. Hatch was the inventor of his "improvement", yet he contracted with another to build the reels (if you want to know who, get the latest book from Steve Vernon; Antique Fishing Reels- nudge, nudge). This continued with other reel makers, right up to Elmer J. Sellers in the 1930's- he patented the idea, and contracted with a machinist to build the parts for him. So, if Green was the inventor, it would have made sense for him to retain the patent, and be free to contract with whomever he wanted to build his reel. He wasn't a stranger to the patent process, having a few patents of his own.
As for the side-mount angle, another upstate NY gunsmith was making reels around the same time - though not with the same open spool design - with the Morgan James reel. Both were likely (I have no proof, just speculation) influenced by Frederick Skinner of England - his side mount dated back to 1848.
Not to take anything away from Green - he was a brilliant angler and perhaps the best caster in the world for the better part of 3 decades (imagine what these guys could do with today's tackle?)
Because there was no mention of Green in the patent submission of 1859, nor any mention when the extension was filed in 1873, I firmly believe the idea was Williams. Lastly, I suspect if Green had a strong influence, his name would have appeared on the reel stamp - not just Williams. The earliest stamp duplicates one used on a dated 1840's rifle, perhaps lost when Billinghurst's shop burnt down in 1856. The "new" stamp would have most certainly been struck with Seth's name somewhere had he played a part in the invention. These guys were very proud of their work, and signed most everything.
Sorry to ramble, just my thoughts.

[reeltackle]

A few thoughts on the subject:

In most all cases, the man (or woman) that came up with the idea, I.E. the inventor, submitted a patent idea to the patent office to protect said idea/invention.

I would beg to differ with you on this point. I'll bet that most idea men had no technical experience and did not know exactly how, what they wanted in a reel, could be accomplished without the help of a machinist. This is why the idea man sought out a competent machinist who could make his ideas a reality.

I'm sure I could sight just as many examples of reels that were thought up by a non-mechanical person who took their ideas to a machinist who then, made these ideas come to life. The man with the idea didn't have to have ultra-technical mechanical plans all drawn up, just a sound idea of what he wanted from the reel and perhaps some rough drawings of how he thought it might appear. The idea man would then leave the project in the hands of the capable machinist and who would work out the bugs, build the idea man's reel, and then, as builder, the reel would be patented only under the builder's name. To name only a few -

The Fin-Nor reel - Idea Capt. Tommy Gifford, reel built by Fred Grieten.
The Julius vom B-Ocean reel. Idea by Boschen, reel by Julius vom Hofe
The Hardy "Zane Grey" reel. Idea by Zane Grey, reel by Hardy Bros.
The Hardy White-Wickham Reel. Idea by White-Wickham, reel by Hardy Bros.
The Hardy "Alma" reel. Idea by Alma Baker, reel by Hardy Bros.
I could go on and on with Hardy reels alone.
The Errol Bullen Atalanta Reel - Idea by Errol Bullen, reel by Fred Smith.

The patent is held by the builder and idea man perhaps gets his name on the reel, or the paperwork, but, most importantly for the idea man, he gets his reel!

I would imagine there is an amazingly long list of people who took their ideas to a machinist and said, "This is my idea for a reel, can you help me make it happen?" Unfortunately, all we have on the majority of patented reels is the patent information and not the back story on where, or who the idea came from. The idea man does not get credit for the patent, however, the reel would never have been made if the idea man had not taken his idea to the machinist. Back in the day the builder would get the patent and then perhaps a deal is struck and the two go into business together. I think this was perhaps the case with Billinghurst & Green.

Idea by Green, Reel by Billinghurst.

Why else would they be called the Billinghurst & Green reel? If he was not idea man then why was his name associated with the reel? His name might not have been on the box, however, it was on the paperwork that came with the reel, is that not good enough?

[Steve]

Why else would they be called the Billinghurst & Green reel?

Seth Green was no doubt much more widely known than Mr. Billinghurst.

Coulda been nothing more than a result of celebrity endorsement and, perhaps, Green helping out with some venture capital.

...examples of reels that were thought up by a non-mechanical person who took their ideas to a machinist who then, made these ideas come to life.

What's an "idea man?" Assuming he didn't discover the need for himself, Billinghurst is told that an angler--supposedly Green in this case--would love to have a reel much lighter than the Morgan James clunker and one that would allow the line to dry without the fuss of unspooling it. So B. invents his. Who is the "idea man?" Ed Deacon sure knew what he was doing when he patented his 1857 clutch--his pen cases worked similarly--but his shop was set up to make pen cases, so Warrin built the reels (or had them built).

As to the B/Ocean: What was the idea? Are we talking about the clutch, the subject of the 1911 patent? Or are we talking about the star drag? Boschen could have suggested to Julius: "It would be nice if you could adjust the drag with something besides that stupid wrench your brother uses. Any thoughts? Maybe a nut under the handle? I dunno; maybe you can figure out something." Who's the inventor and who is the idea man?

I'll bet that most idea men had no technical experience and did not know exactly how, what they wanted in a reel, could be accomplished without the help of a machinist.

I would beg to differ with you on this point. I'll bet that the vast majority of reel inventors knew just what they wanted in a reel. Having to ask a machinist to build the thing they designed hardly transfers the credit for the invention, even if the machinist can offer a suggestion or two.

Jim wisely brought up the Hatch reel. Hatch ran a machine shop, patented several machine tools. He could have built anything. The commercial version of his reel differed from the patented design. It's likely that the contracted manufacturer suggested the design change, but that hardly qualifies it to be credited for the invention.

Peter Giroud was a watchmaker and knew just what he was doing when he designed his reel. The version sold by Mills & Son ignored his spool but used his brake/click mechanism in a fancy little product. Who is the "idea man" here? Giroud was in no position to get into reel manufacturing.

The point is that the meaning of "idea" is a bit too vague for me to agree.

[reeltackle]

Why else would they be called the Billinghurst & Green reel?

Seth Green was no doubt much more widely known than Mr. Billinghurst.

Coulda been nothing more than a result of celebrity endorsement and, perhaps, Green helping out with some venture capital.

That was my first thought too, celebrity endorsement (see above), but, how realistic is that. As far as venture capital I ruled that out after a conversation with Jim. Jim said Billinghurst was pretty well off and could fund a project like that himself. After all, it would mostly be cheap materials and his time.

By idea man I simply meant the passionate fisherman who wants a better reel and has a few ideas.

What's an "idea man?" Assuming he didn't discover the need for himself, Billinghurst is told that an angler--supposedly Green in this case--would love to have a reel much lighter than the Morgan James clunker and one that would allow the line to dry without the fuss of unspooling it. So B. invents his. Who is the "idea man?" Ed Deacon sure knew what he was doing when he patented his 1857 clutch--his pen cases worked similarly--but his shop was set up to make pen cases, so Warrin built the reels (or had them built).

I doubt that Billinghurst simply "is told that an angler -- supposedly Green in this case -- would love to have a reel much lighter.....". I would have to think that Green and Billinghurst had at least one long, serious, involved discussion about the reel. I can't see it happening your way there. We could go back and forth about guys like Deacon and Grieten all day long so whats the point here. Deacon wanted a clutch for a reel and built one and had it patented. Grieten had no inclination of building a reel until some fellows came to him with the idea to build one. This is what I mean by "idea man", not some guy who plans on getting a patent and seeing the whole thing through to fruition himself, just a guy who wants a better reel and works it out with someone who can make it happen. Not everyone was in it for the patent.

As to the B/Ocean: What was the idea? Are we talking about the clutch, the subject of the 1911 patent? Or are we talking about the star drag? Boschen could have suggested to Julius: "It would be nice if you could adjust the drag with something besides that stupid wrench your brother uses. Any thoughts? Maybe a nut under the handle? I dunno; maybe you can figure out something." Who's the inventor and who is the idea man?

Do you really think that was the role Boschen played? Just saying something like, "Any thoughts? Maybe a nut under the handle? I dunno; maybe you can figure out something." I think he brought more to the table than that don't you? Julius must have thought so or why name the reel for him? Was Boschen on the patent? He was probably instrumental in getting the reel made for his use and not interested in the rest of the business.

I am not suggesting here that Green invented the reel and that is why I used the term idea man instead of inventor. Don't get me wrong, I believe that Billinghurst was 100% responsible for the making of the reel. I am simply suggesting that Green came to him with an idea that Billinghurst brought to fruition and gave Green some credit for. Why is that so hard to believe??? Is it easier to believe that it was a celebrity endorsement and Green had no input in the reel itself?

[Steve]

Why is that so hard to believe???

It's not...the other stuff had to do with possibilities. What bugs me the most is the fact that we've never seen the B&G name before. The reel was made for many years, and folks wrote about it for years. Why no other early references to that name (besides Colby's 1860 discovery)? The paper in the box says "Manufactured by Billinghurst & Green." This hints at a formal partnership, possibly a very short-lived one. Lots of the early makers were in and out of partnerships almost annually. (Not to mention the not-yet-disproven possibility that the Green was not Seth. Consider Charles, gunmaker, Dewitt, machinist, and Samuel, patent rights agent. Seth ran a fish market: Green & Palmer, then Seth Green & Bro.) A great mystery!

[Mike N]

Yet another incredible thread on reeltalk. No other amateur collectors club forum on any topic comes close to this level of scholarship on an impromptu basis. Proud to be a member of ORCA.

Mike N.