Billinghurst Fly Reel With Box & Paperwork

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Re: Billinghurst Fly Reel With Box & Paperwork

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Grateful that you founded us.

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Re: Billinghurst Fly Reel With Box & Paperwork

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ORCANs,

Mr. Green had a long reach, indeed, as this excerpt from "Transaction of the American Fish Culturists", vol. 9, 1880 shows his (successful) efforts to introduce American Shad to California in the late 1870s.

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Re: Billinghurst Fly Reel With Box & Paperwork

Post by Jim Schottenham »

Aside from the discussion on who may have had the initial idea for the B. reel, I think there is a very compelling case to be made that Ed's reel once belonged to Seth Green. Coupled with the article that came with the box, it should be noted the reel is coin silver - a prize grade reel that Cliff Netherton mentioned in his book History of the Sport of Casting - Early Times on page 7, was won by Seth Green on June 19th, 1862. So, you have a prize grade Billinghurst, newspaper clipping mentioning Seth and a newly discovered Billinghurst & Green paper tag. Then of course there is photographic proof that Seth used a birdcage reel in one of my favorite photographs:
Image
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Re: Billinghurst Fly Reel With Box & Paperwork

Post by colby sorrells »

How about a photo of Seth Green using a Billinghurst reel? Does that get us anywhere?




From the Democrat and Chronicle July 16, 1933
This came from the one page article about Seth Green. In the photo he is fishing at Mumford with William Oviatt father of Mayor Percival D. Oviatt of Rochester. This photo no doubt dates prior to 1880. The reel is clearly a skeleton type reel. PLEASE note this is a different reel from the example in the photo Jim posted.

Also for discussion purposes - a possible reason for the short life of the Billinghurst & Green name being used - it is possible that Seth Green decided having his name associated with a fishing tackle product, like the reel, was not the best idea because it would mean he could no longer claim to be an amateur caster in casting tournaments. If he was part owner of a fishing reel company he would have to compete in the Professional category or maybe not even participate in the even at all!



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Re: Billinghurst Fly Reel With Box & Paperwork

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Relevant to the last couple posts, don’t you think it odd that the part owner of a company would win a reel made by his own company? Seems he likely would have had all the Billinghurst reels he could eat, just for the asking. Also, in an earlier posting, it was mentioned that Green won a casting contest in which his presumed business partner was a judge?? Trying to keep an open mind but i’m having primal doubts about the number of Mr Greens in this story!
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Re: Billinghurst Fly Reel With Box & Paperwork

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Following Steve's observation, The Rochester Directory, Volume 28 Sampson & Murdock Company, 1877 - Rochester (N.Y.), shows that William Billinghurst and Charles Green were separate gunsmiths but their business addresses in Rochester were almost right next door to each other on the same side of the road where East and West Main Streets come together near the Gennessee River. 41 E Main and 3 West Main would have been close to or even adjacent back in 1877. I compared current map, satellite and maps 1877-1890.
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Re: Billinghurst Fly Reel With Box & Paperwork

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Paul M wrote:Following Steve's observation, The Rochester Directory, Volume 28 Sampson & Murdock Company, 1877 - Rochester (N.Y.), shows that William Billinghurst and Charles Green were separate gunsmiths but their business addresses in Rochester were almost right next door to each other on the same side of the road where East and West Main Streets come together near the Gennessee River. 41 E Main and 3 West Main would have been close to or even adjacent back in 1877. I compared current map, satellite and maps 1877-1890.

So the question is, which upstate NY Green is more likely to have partnered with Billinghurst the reel and gunmaker: Seth (the pioneer of American fish hatcheries, who also tournament casted and is shown in the photo above with a birdcage reel) or Charles (another nearby gunsmith)? [Steve V. also mentions two other contenders, Dewitt, machinist, and Samuel, patent rights agent.]

The answer may appear in a gunmaker book somewhere, which are typically loaded with biographies since gun collectors are as passionate as reel collectors.

Here is a description of a Charles Green, Rochester, NY double hammer shotgun sold on icollector.com. I could not see a maker’s mark in the photo:

“Manufactured by Charles Green, Rochester, N.Y., this shotgun features a single brass bead sight on the smooth, solid concave rib, which is marked "CHAS. GREEN, MAKER. ROCHESTER, N.Y. DAMASCUS STEEL" and "Made for John Calender". The frame, locks, break lever, trigger guard and breech end of the barrels are finely floral scroll engraved with an oval panel on each side of the frame, with two ducks in a marsh scene on the right and two quail on the left. In addition the trigger guard has an oval panel with a dogs head. Damascus steel barrels, double triggers and mounted with a checkered splinter forearm and straight grip stock with a checkered horn buttplate and gold thumb shield inscribed "J.C.". An internet search for John Calender found several, further investigation could prove interesting. Length of pull is 14 1/8".
BBL: 30 inch solid rib
Stock: walnut
Gauge: 10
Finish: brown/csaehardened
Grips:
Serial Number: 785
Condition: Very good. The barrels retain 50% original brown finish with almost all of the original Damascus pattern remaining. The remaining parts have a smooth grayish patina. There are a couple areas of minor oxidation on the barrels. The wood is fine with heavy wear on the wrist checkering, scattered minor dings and dents, and crisp checkering on the forearm. The engraving and markings are clear. Mechanically fine. ”

Link to shotgun photo:

https://www.icollector.com/Engraved-Cha ... n_i9752907

This also might be a good publication from 1951 to consult if it can be located:

JOURNAL ARTICLE
NEW YORK STATE GUNMAKERS (PART I): A Partial Checklist

Holman J. Swinney
New York History
Vol. 32, No. 1 (January, 1951), pp. 91-112
Published by: Fenimore Art Museum
https://www.jstor.org/stable/23150009
Last edited by Mike N on Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Billinghurst Fly Reel With Box & Paperwork

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Here is Billinghurst’s biographical entry from American Gunmakers, Second Edition, 1953, by Colonel Arcadi Gluckman:

“BILLINGHURST, William— 9 Stillson St., Rochester, N. Y. Born in
Monroe, Co., N. Y., in 1807, died in Rochester March 4, 1880. Inter-
nationally famous maker and match shooter. Established in
Rochester about 1838; 43 Main St. in 1841. Advertised in 1853:
". . . rifles, target rifles, repeating rifles, or seven-shooters, double
barreled rifles, one-above-the-other, rifle and shot, double
barreled guns, telescopic sights for rifles made to order. Repairing
of all kinds . . .”

And here is the short entry for Green:

GREEN, Charles— Rochester, N. Y., 1876-78.
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Re: Billinghurst Fly Reel With Box & Paperwork

Post by colby sorrells »

John Elder,
I think you mis-read some parts of this. William Billinghurst was an umpire ( a judge) of the casting tournament that Seth Green won.

Both Seth Green and William Billinghurst were excellent shots with rifles and both won shooting contest over a period of years. It would seem they most likely saw each other often and they were no doubt at the same event at least once because Billinghurst was the umpire and Seth Green was the winner of the casting event.

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Re: Billinghurst Fly Reel With Box & Paperwork

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Billinghurst & Green ad in Louisville newspaper in 1860.

Charles Green in business in 1876. Charles Green in Rochester Directory in 1877.

So it looks like the reel, patented in 1859, was at least 16 years older than the Charles Green gun business.

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Re: Billinghurst Fly Reel With Box & Paperwork

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colby sorrells wrote:Billinghurst & Green ad in Louisville newspaper in 1860.

Charles Green in business in 1876. Charles Green in Rochester Directory in 1877.

So it looks like the reel, patented in 1859, was at least 16 years older than the Charles Green gun business.

Colby
Excellent point, Colby. But the serial no. 785 on the Charles Green shotgun linked above leads me to believe Charles may have built firearms far longer than the 2 years he appeared in the Rochester, NY business directory, perhaps at another upstate NY location, or maybe even as an apprentice of Billinghurst.

Here is the Rock Island Auction link for the Charles Green shotgun verifying a serial number 785:

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detai ... er-shotgun

Apprenticeships were a big part becoming a gunmaker. Here is some additional bio info on William Billinghurst:

“Around 1823, he started as to learn his trade with the gunsmith Joseph Medbury.
In the year 1827, he moved near to Rochester, New York and worked there for the gunsmiths James and John Millar.

In 1841, he bought the company and patents from the Millars and earned a good reputation for his repeating gun. His revolver rifles were in demand, as they were made in the highest manufacturing quality.

He sold rifles to Don Pedro d'Alcantara, the Emperor of Brazil and the Maharajah of Bombay, among others.

Underhammer weapons were made by him in the time before the US Civil War (1861 - 1865) and belonged in the states of New England to the best. His underhammer pistols were very often weapons with heavy and partly 12 to 18 inch long barrels. A further speciality was the part equipping of this model with scopes, false muzzles and rifle stocks.
Particularly interesting is the fact that he managed with very few function parts and still manufactured weapons which shot perfectly..”

Source link:

http://www.dedinski.com/verkauf/pistole ... _hist.html
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Re: Billinghurst Fly Reel With Box & Paperwork

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I was able to find one partnership started by Billinghurst, with a man named Josephus Requa who had once been Billinghurst’s apprentice and later became a dentist:


From a recent “Guns of the Old West Magazine,” December 28, 2017:


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Re: Billinghurst Fly Reel With Box & Paperwork

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Colby...that’s pretty much my point and what I said, I believe. But then, judging a casting contest might not be subjective so a relationship between judge and contestant may not be a violation. 8)
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Re: Billinghurst Fly Reel With Box & Paperwork

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So it looks like the reel, patented in 1859, was at least 16 years older than the Charles Green gun business.
Not quite.
1859:
1861:
1863:
Charles was 17 in 1860. Maybe he was a B. apprentice learning how to solder wire. But no, I'm gonna put my money on Samuel.

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Re: Billinghurst Fly Reel With Box & Paperwork

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What a Find! Congrats my friend.
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Re: Billinghurst Fly Reel With Box & Paperwork

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Steve- that 1863 entry for Charles Green is very interesting. I may have to check Civil War enlistment records because the next entry I see is 1871 for Green partnering with a man named Alling. I would like to confirm Charles date of birth in light of Colby’s 1860 advertisement. We know that Billinghurst was a major arms contributor during the Civil War who “usually employed several men.”



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Re: Billinghurst Fly Reel With Box & Paperwork

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to confirm Charles date of birth


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Re: Billinghurst Fly Reel With Box & Paperwork

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Bringing Samuel in might solve some issues related to patent filings and costs, for sure...working free for a piece of the action, maybe?
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Re: Billinghurst Fly Reel With Box & Paperwork

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According to one biographer*, Seth Green and his brother employed over 100 people at their Rochester fish and game market by 1857. In 1860 Seth (born 1817) was 43 years old. Seth had no known gun making or reel making talents. Billinghurst already owned the 1859 patent for the reel and had already put his name only on the reel.

Absent something more, I was not 100% sold that Billinghurst, New York’s finest gunmaker, would partner in 1860 with Seth, or vice versa, to make guns or reels unless he needed capital for national advertising such as the April 30, 1860 Louisville Daily Courier advertisement Colby found. Would the likely wealthier and more famous Seth Green put his name second in such a partnership, even if Billinghurst (born 1807) was a decade older and his senior?

Each partner has to bring something to the marriage so I suppose Billinghurst brought the technical skills and patent and Seth Green brought the capital. On the eve of Ft. Sumter in 1861 and the outbreak of the Civil War, it’s no surprise the 1860 partnership was short-lived as Billinghurst turned back to making rifles for the Union.

Conversely I doubt Billinghurst would have partnered with 17 year old Charles Green, no matter his gunmaking skill level, given the date of birth Steve found.

*”Seth Green Father of Fish Culture,” Sylvia R. Black, Rochester History, July, 1944; Vol. IX, No.3.
https://www.libraryweb.org/~rochhist/v6_1944/v6i3.pdf

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Re: Billinghurst Fly Reel With Box & Paperwork

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john elder wrote:Bringing Samuel in might solve some issues related to patent filings and costs, for sure...working free for a piece of the action, maybe?
John- that’s a real possibility given that Samuel Green was a patent agent. I looked at the two witnesses to the 1859 application and neither appeared to be Samuel Green, but I’m not sure what the protocol was then.
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Re: Billinghurst Fly Reel With Box & Paperwork

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I looked at the two witnesses to the 1859 application and neither appeared to be Samuel Green
So did I. But if Green was a patent lawyer or agent or whatever the 1859 term was, he would not have been a witness. In them thar days, the lawyer's name was not included on the patent.
Bringing Samuel in might solve some issues related to patent filings and costs, for sure
My sentiments exactly, which is why I introduced him. It's surprising how many early reel patents were "co-invented" with or assigned to lawyers. I've always believed it was a means of payment from the inventor to the lawyer. Reuben Benjamin assigned half of a railway signal patent to a lawyer. Case, of Harris & Case, assigned his patent half to a lawyer. On the other hand, some lawyers--who seemed to have the requisite technical knowledge--had their own reel patents: Liddell, Upton, Wisner, Myers, Sander, Wallace, et al.

While we're on the subject: In 1868, the IRS differentiated between patent-right dealers and patent-right agents. The latter prosecuted claims and/or procured patents.

More speculation is not going to ID the Green of B.&G. Maybe there's a tidbit or two in Rochester that may do the trick.

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Re: Billinghurst Fly Reel With Box & Paperwork

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Charles Green had a son in 1878, Charles J. Green, snip is from the 1930 US Census for Syracuse, NY. C. J didn't fall far from the tree!! Might find a living relative.

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Re: Billinghurst Fly Reel With Box & Paperwork

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I love guys who are knowledgeable on their specialty! While I have been out fishing and you guys have expanded this thread in amazing fashion with great historical data and records. Not being my area of expertise I can't add any facts that you guys haven't already ... but.... here are my thoughts from what I've gleaned from your information and from what came with my reel.

I would rule out Charles Green because of his age, lack of experience and what he would have brought to the table, not enough I suspect to have his name on the advertisement next to Billinghurst's name.

Samuel Green, I don't see him either. Again, Billinghurst is well off and does not need Samuel's backing to start and finance a business that he already has the tools for and the cost of the materials to make the product are negligible. Also, according to this thread Mr. B has negotiated patents before and Samuel is not on any of them, including the patent for the reel. You don't put a guy into your business name just because he helped you clear a few patent hurdles. Also, you don't see Samuel Green's name on Billinghurst gun advertisements or product associated paperwork.

I see it as Seth Green and here is my premise - I don't believe that this whole business started out as a business, it just does not make sense. Remember, this is the pre-civil war late 1850s, it would seem unlikely that someone would make grand plans to open a fishing reel manufacturing business out of the blue without there being a proven need for them.

So my dear scholars, I submit this..............

As stated in a previous comment on this thread - Green & Billinghurst both attend and enter shooting contests. Both are very good shots. I believe that if these two fellows are seeing each other at shooting contests, and Billinghurst is a gun maker and Green loves guns and shooting, that they most likely had some interesting conversations about guns and perhaps even became friends. Perhaps the subject of Green's other love, fly throwing even came up. I would be more surprised if these two men, both sharing the same passion for shooting did not become acquainted if not friends. If in fact Green and Billinghurst were friends, or even just acquaintances talking at shows together, I am sure that fly throwing would also come up as a topic of conversation as Green, after all, is "the" champion thrower.

Whether Billinghurst brought up fly throwing or Green brought it up, no matter. Like all people who truly excel at something I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that Green had an interest in having better equipment for more accurate fly throwing if for no other reason than the reels of the day were so crude. It should not surprise anyone that Green might have even had some ideas on how to improve upon a reel, after all, he was a champion and it was his passion. Throughout the history of fishing, as in any other sport, it is the passionate champions that most often come up with the ideas for improvements for equipment in their sport.

So, who would you take your idea to if you were a not a mechanical person as was previously mentioned above in this thread. Perhaps it would bee that talented machinist who made those wonderful guns that you met at the shooting matches you both attend.

I do not think it would be a stretch to believe that Green would tell Billinghurst about his ideas for a better reel. As a inventive machinist I can see Billinghurst being interested in Greens ideas and listening. Green is a successful well off guy who wants a better reel and Billinghurst can make this wish come true. Perhaps the guy with an idea and the guy who can make it happen put their heads together for an afternoon and came up with a reel design that Billinghurst then proceeds to make. I would not be surprised if the financially sound Mr. Green paid Mr. Billinghurst to build the reel for him.

I fail to see why everyone assumes that this partnership had to start out as a business venture with big plans with everyone so darn eager to acquire the patent for it? Neither Green or Billinghurst have to go into the reel business to better themselves financially. Perhaps it is as simple as - Green gets his reel and he is happy. Green pays Billinghurst for the reel. Maybe Billinghurst makes a reel for himself too. Maybe they talk about making more reels, maybe they don't. It seems more feasible to me that Green would take this new reel to fly throwing competitions and people would want one. Heck, the champion fly thrower uses one, doesn't everyone believe that they will cast better if only they had the same equipment that the champion uses?

So the word gets out in the fly throwing world that the champion thrower is using a new reel. "Hello there Mr. Green. I say, where can one acquire one of those newfangled reels you have there my good man". Mr Green replies, "Well good sir, perhaps I can have one made for you, let me check with my source." Maybe the idea of going into business starts then, maybe not until after several inquiries, maybe not for a couple of years. At some point one of them says, "My oh my, I believe that if we produced these reels they would sell like Johnnycakes", and so it begins.

Billinghurst actually makes the reels so he gets the patent. Why would Green object, Billinghurst did all the timely tedious work setting up the jigs, working out the bugs and soldering it all together. And ... not everyone in this old world is "patent happy".

Green is seen casting the reel at competitions and is naturally associated with the reel. Again, he is the champion and people naturally want to use the equipment that the champion uses. Green brought the idea to Billinghurst. Why would Billinghurst be adverse to adding Green's name to the paperwork, it would just be the right thing to do. Hence, Billinghurst & Green.

Wouldn't this also help account for the reels that have been found that are unmarked. Billinghurst makes a better reel for Green's use so it is not marked Billinghurst and does not have a patent date because there is no patent. Others casters want reels so he makes a handful more, these reels are also unmarked. Billinghurst & Green at some point see this as a viable business, apply for a patent and mark the reels accordingly. Green's name is not on the reel because he is not the maker or the patent holder but it is on the paperwork. Credit is given where credit is due. This seems to make more sense than reels that are currently being stamped in Billinghurst's shop slipping out of his small shop unstamped.

Soon the Civil War rolls around, the world changes, Billinghurst is making guns for the Union and Green is what, raising trout to feed the troops or something? The war ends and lives have changed. Billinghurst continues to make reels. Green???

Now, examine the reel.........

The reel is a coin silver reel and, as stated above, was the type of reel given out as a prize in tournaments. Seth Green won a "fly throwing" tournament 1862. Billinghurst was an official at casting tournaments, they almost certainly had to have been acquainted and they had to have had conversations. This was a casting competition in up state New York, I'm sure it was not so darn crowded that the two fellows did not meet. They had the same passions.

Now let's also examine what came in the box with the reel - The paperwork that came with my coin silver reel states "Billinghurst & Green" AND there was a long article about Seth Green in the box with the reel. Now I'm not saying the reel belonged to Seth Green but why would someone cut out the article and put it in the box if the two Greens were not somehow associated. The only two items in a (give or take a year) 155 year old box both referring to a Green. It just seems like too much of a coincidence to me to be overlooked ... or, perhaps I should consider a career in historical fiction.
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Re: Billinghurst Fly Reel With Box & Paperwork

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Sorry, I lost you at "I love guys."

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Re: Billinghurst Fly Reel With Box & Paperwork

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Steve wrote:Sorry, I lost you at "I love guys."
Both men lived in extremely close proximity to each other and shared the same passions for guns and shooting, attend the same events, and you don't see their paths ever crossing or these two men having a discussion about their similar interests? You don't see Green ever going into Billinghurst's gun shop and having a discussion? Why, because you can't find something in print from a period 1850's newspaper article or public record that says "Mr. Billinghurst and Mr. Green were seen chatting together at a shooting match today." Does it all have to be in 1850's black and white for you?

Don't be shy Mr. Pie, put your best theory forward. Like it or not, the name Green is on the paperwork, who was he and why was his name there?
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