Did Shakespeare make all of their reels?
Did Shakespeare make all of their reels?
In another recent post about a brass fly reel, I mentioned my suspicions that some old Shakespeare reels just don’t look Shakespeare-ish. I’ve always questioned the Alamo, Precision, and any reel that has that rope edge circle decoration or the raised circle around the endcap.
Notice the untypical crank arm screw, endcap, and counterbalance on the Alamo. Very similar to the reel below which Mark has ID’d as a Montague make:
And this Montague:
Now did Shakespeare make the Milam Rustic?
Very similar to this Shakespeare Precision:
Notice the untypical crank arm screw, endcap, and counterbalance on the Alamo. Very similar to the reel below which Mark has ID’d as a Montague make:
And this Montague:
Now did Shakespeare make the Milam Rustic?
Very similar to this Shakespeare Precision:
Re: Did Shakespeare make all of their reels?
Eric,
You laid out a provocative case with a lot of persuasive circumstantial evidence. It would be nice to find an invoice or communication between Shakespeare and Montague to seal the deal. My guess is it’s out there somewhere.
However, at least two authors have written that Shakespeare made all of the reels sold by South Bend.
“In a letter dated May 27, 1947 to Mr. Shakespeare, Mr. Ivar Hennings of the South Bend Bait Company wrote: ‘Very clearly do I recall visiting you at Kalamazoo along about 1912, and how graciously you agreed to again start manufacturing reels for us and did so speedily to help us out.’”
http://www.antiquelures.com/Shakehistory.htm
See also, https://www.historymuseumsb.org/south-b ... t-company/ (“During most of South Bend’s history, Shakespeare of Kalamazoo, Michigan, manufactured South Bend Bait Company’s fishing reels, but when this arrangement started is unknown.”)
So, if Shakespeare had the workforce and machinery to build reels for a competitor, why would it outsource the manufacture of its own reels?
Interesting discussion for sure.
Mike N.
You laid out a provocative case with a lot of persuasive circumstantial evidence. It would be nice to find an invoice or communication between Shakespeare and Montague to seal the deal. My guess is it’s out there somewhere.
However, at least two authors have written that Shakespeare made all of the reels sold by South Bend.
“In a letter dated May 27, 1947 to Mr. Shakespeare, Mr. Ivar Hennings of the South Bend Bait Company wrote: ‘Very clearly do I recall visiting you at Kalamazoo along about 1912, and how graciously you agreed to again start manufacturing reels for us and did so speedily to help us out.’”
http://www.antiquelures.com/Shakehistory.htm
See also, https://www.historymuseumsb.org/south-b ... t-company/ (“During most of South Bend’s history, Shakespeare of Kalamazoo, Michigan, manufactured South Bend Bait Company’s fishing reels, but when this arrangement started is unknown.”)
So, if Shakespeare had the workforce and machinery to build reels for a competitor, why would it outsource the manufacture of its own reels?
Interesting discussion for sure.
Mike N.
Mike N.
ORCA Founder, 1990
ORCA Founder, 1990
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Re: Did Shakespeare make all of their reels?
I think it would be appropriate to compare internals, rather than just concentrating on end caps, crank handles and crank nuts.
Re: Did Shakespeare make all of their reels?
Ha ha! That first quote is something I wrote many years ago. It was from a letter that Hennings sent to WSJr to celebrate the 50th anniversary of Shakespeare. Letters from all over the country from people he did business with were solicited and bound in a book for him. Shakespeare didn’t make all of SB reels, there is the mystery 1131 that no one knows for sure who made. I think that is why Hennings says “you graciously agreed to make reels for us again” which means to me that SB dropped Shakespeare, but when the new maker couldn’t produce the volume they needed, or went out of business, Hennings had to go back to Shakespeare and ask them to please please please make the reels again.
I could understand Shakespeare buying the least expensive reels from someone else instead of taking on the expense of tooling up for a cheap reel. Why would the Alamo be the only reel they made were the crank handle is held on with a screw instead of a nut? And a screw that looks exactly like the Montague screws?
I could understand Shakespeare buying the least expensive reels from someone else instead of taking on the expense of tooling up for a cheap reel. Why would the Alamo be the only reel they made were the crank handle is held on with a screw instead of a nut? And a screw that looks exactly like the Montague screws?
Re: Did Shakespeare make all of their reels?
Eric, it’s obvious you’ve been a Shakespeare researcher for many, many years and I defer to your expertise on that issue. There are probably a dozen people in the entire country who are truly interested in our esoteric discussion on Shakespeare reel manufacturing, but the good news almost all of them are here on this Reel Talk website. Thanks for initiating this interesting topic.
Mike N.
Mike N.
Mike N.
ORCA Founder, 1990
ORCA Founder, 1990
Re: Did Shakespeare make all of their reels?
Well Mike, I’ve handled a lot of Shakespeare reels over the years, but I’ve learned more from ORCA and Reel News/ Reel Talk than I’ve been able to share.
That’s what ORCA is all about, right? Chronicling the history of the most noble past time- fishing.
Again, I’m just airing my suspicions based on observations. I don’t have any proofs, but when I see these nagging inconsistencies it makes me want to find the answers. I’m hoping someone else can share their insights and observations.
I could post the internal workings of my Shakespeare reels, but I don’t have any Montague’s or Milam’s. Someone else would have to share those.
That’s what ORCA is all about, right? Chronicling the history of the most noble past time- fishing.
Again, I’m just airing my suspicions based on observations. I don’t have any proofs, but when I see these nagging inconsistencies it makes me want to find the answers. I’m hoping someone else can share their insights and observations.
I could post the internal workings of my Shakespeare reels, but I don’t have any Montague’s or Milam’s. Someone else would have to share those.
Re: Did Shakespeare make all of their reels?
This 1909 catalog cut shows the Alamo with two drag buttons, one at 9 and one at 12 where the Shakespeare logo would be. No circular rope edge decoration, and a much different foot.
Here’s the insides of my two Alamo’s, both 80 yard and take-down variety.
The main gear post is held in place by two different riveting methods.
The crank handle screws are similar in shape, but different diameters, and the bearing journal threads are much smaller than the other Shakespeare’s of that period.
- kyreels
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Re: Did Shakespeare make all of their reels?
As to your question
The B..C Milam Rustic has been researched carefully and credited to being made by Shakespeare. It was an effort to make a cost-effective reel priced lower for the market of the time. I personally think Shakespeare had reels and other fishing tackle made by others. Creek Chub made the later Shakespeare casting weights. It was a business where profit was important, so if it made sense, why not?Now did Shakespeare make the Milam Rustic?
Matt Wickham
Collector of Casting Weights, KY Reels and KY Tackle
Collector of Casting Weights, KY Reels and KY Tackle
Re: Did Shakespeare make all of their reels?
Thanks Matt- I thought the rustic looked very Shakespearesque. So if a major reel manufacturer like Milam bought their less expensive reels from other makers, maybe Shakespeare did the same thing?
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Re: Did Shakespeare make all of their reels?
The Alamo on the bottom is a "Take-Apart" model. The Montague above is not. Two completely different reels.
Re: Did Shakespeare make all of their reels?
Funny though if you look at the catalog cut closely, it couldn’t be a take-apart because the two drag buttons are in the way. The Alamo could be bought as a solid frame or take-apart.
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Re: Did Shakespeare make all of their reels?
Screws were made single-turn on a lathe in 1909. The manner of 19th century craftsmanship was to match threads on a single joint. One reel with a botched main gear thread could be corrected with a larger thread and matching screw.
The market itself was a small system, still the baliwick of the wealthy - hadn't yet tricled down even to the professional class - and there was plenty of room for craftsmen and innovation.
The concept of standardizing parts was novel before WWI made it into a contracting requirement.
If you look at the example of Helical reels from UK, the freaking things didn't interchange parts in 1939.
Back to c.1909, when Enterprise had their foot in the market, Shakespeare was well-established. The Montague reels that Enterprise added to their line are fairly easy to identify as Montague. Whom do you suggest made mystery reels for Shakespeare?
Using Pflueger again as an example,after 1915, when they began marking reels, they sold plenty of reels without their marque.
It's also very easy to show that Shakespeare was innovative in the first decade of the 20th century.
The market itself was a small system, still the baliwick of the wealthy - hadn't yet tricled down even to the professional class - and there was plenty of room for craftsmen and innovation.
The concept of standardizing parts was novel before WWI made it into a contracting requirement.
If you look at the example of Helical reels from UK, the freaking things didn't interchange parts in 1939.
Back to c.1909, when Enterprise had their foot in the market, Shakespeare was well-established. The Montague reels that Enterprise added to their line are fairly easy to identify as Montague. Whom do you suggest made mystery reels for Shakespeare?
Using Pflueger again as an example,after 1915, when they began marking reels, they sold plenty of reels without their marque.
It's also very easy to show that Shakespeare was innovative in the first decade of the 20th century.
Last edited by Ron Mc on Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Did Shakespeare make all of their reels?
The automatic screw machine was invented in 1880, and Shakespeare installed $30,000 of these automatic machines in the factory in 1905.
The multiple spindle screw machine was invented during WW1.
Of course these were not CNC, and the screw machine was set up manually to make one particular screw. It seems inconceivable that Shakespeare would have the machinists reset the machines to make an oddball part that only went on one of there cheapest reels. It would be much more cost effective to have the reel accept the existing parts.
From what I’m seeing, Montague made the Alamo. More photographs to come.
The multiple spindle screw machine was invented during WW1.
Of course these were not CNC, and the screw machine was set up manually to make one particular screw. It seems inconceivable that Shakespeare would have the machinists reset the machines to make an oddball part that only went on one of there cheapest reels. It would be much more cost effective to have the reel accept the existing parts.
From what I’m seeing, Montague made the Alamo. More photographs to come.
Re: Did Shakespeare make all of their reels?
Alamo on the left, Precision on the right showing two different take-apart posts from the same period.
Alamo left, Precision right showing the extra internal gear coverplate that the more expensive Precision did not have.
Alamo left, Precision right showing the click spring of the Precision is the thicker standard phosphor bronze that Shakespeare used and held on with screws, the Alamo spring is thinner, some other metal, riveted on and is in the 10 and 4 position instead of the 9 and 3 position typical of Shakespeare.
Re: Did Shakespeare make all of their reels?
Here is a Montague on the big auction site now. Same circle rope detail, small bearing journal threading, crank handle screw, coin edge on the tail plate, and 10/ 4 orientation of the click on the tail plate as the Shakespeare Alamo.
So here are the possibilities as I’m seeing them:
1.) Shakespeare contracted Montague to make one of their inexpensive reels to Shakespeare’s specs (take-apart and solid frame).
2.) Shakespeare made this Montague Expert reel (not likely).
3.) Shakespeare tooled up and copied a Montague reel almost piece by piece and style-wise for one inexpensive reel in the Shakespeare line but no law suits were ever filed (not likely).
4.) Shakespeare and Montague coincidentally made reels that looked the same inside and out.
So here are the possibilities as I’m seeing them:
1.) Shakespeare contracted Montague to make one of their inexpensive reels to Shakespeare’s specs (take-apart and solid frame).
2.) Shakespeare made this Montague Expert reel (not likely).
3.) Shakespeare tooled up and copied a Montague reel almost piece by piece and style-wise for one inexpensive reel in the Shakespeare line but no law suits were ever filed (not likely).
4.) Shakespeare and Montague coincidentally made reels that looked the same inside and out.
Re: Did Shakespeare make all of their reels?
Now this is something I think is interesting. In 1905 there was an Alamo Rod Company. The Shakespeare Alamo name always puzzled me, but now I think I know where it came from. There is a small four-corners town just northwest of Kalamazoo named Alamo. Only a few miles away. I’ve been through there a thousand times snd never made the connection.
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Re: Did Shakespeare make all of their reels?
There is a Alamo Michigan Museum. They might have some information. Colby
Re: Did Shakespeare make all of their reels?
Thanks Colby. I’ve probably driven past the museum a thousand times too! I’ll check with them tomorrow. I’ve never heard of Alamo rods before until today.
Adding another bamboo rod maker to the Kalamazoo list. Shakespeare, Locher & Robb, and now Alamo.
Adding another bamboo rod maker to the Kalamazoo list. Shakespeare, Locher & Robb, and now Alamo.
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Re: Did Shakespeare make all of their reels?
For what it is worth, 30+ years ago I owned two Shakespeare Alamo reels. I noticed that several things, including the crank attachment, were different than any other Shakespeare reels I had worked on. At that time I mentioned this to longtime reel dealer and repairman Allen McCord. He immediately told me that the Alamo, though sold by Shakespeare, was made by Montague. I never found any reason to doubt him, but always wondered why a company that was making such a wide variety of reels at that time would put their name on another company's product. This thread is the first time since then that I have heard anyone else ask the same question----LOL.
I love to get old reels, work on them until they run as smooth as silk and the take them fishing using pre-1960 plugs, mostly surface fishing for Largemouths after dark.
Re: Did Shakespeare make all of their reels?
That’s worth a lot Bill! Thank you for that gem. I can imagine Shakespeare buying leftover parts from Montague and maybe assembled them in-house. The SHAKESPEARE and ALAMO REEL stampings are also different to the standard Shakespeare stampings of the time, so maybe Montague made them from existing Montague parts to Shakespeare design specs (dog-leg shaped crank arm and take-apart).
I don’t know when the Alamo was introduced or how long it stayed in the line up. Does anyone know?
I don’t know when the Alamo was introduced or how long it stayed in the line up. Does anyone know?
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Re: Did Shakespeare make all of their reels?
At least 1907 to 1910.
Re: Did Shakespeare make all of their reels?
That’s helpful to know Mark. 1907 is about when Marhoff left Shakespeare.
Those were difficult times for Shakespeare I’m sure. The Marquette reel from that period also has features that seem more Montague-like than Shakespeare.
Those were difficult times for Shakespeare I’m sure. The Marquette reel from that period also has features that seem more Montague-like than Shakespeare.