Repairs, restoration, etc.

You got 'em, we know how to clean 'em
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Steve
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Repairs, restoration, etc.

Post by Steve »

Here are some sober comments on antique firearms that are relevant to old reels, too. Maybe ORCA should consider formally adopting some definitions like those in "Restoration and Repair..."

http://www.gabelguns.com/archives.asp
http://www.gabelguns.com/bulletin.asp

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Post by SWIM JIG »

:D 8) :!: :?: :idea: :arrow: :type: STEVE! you are correct, we need to adjust our Standards asap, any gun, reel rod antique or art work that is inhanced for the only benifit of finacial gain is WRONG! There lies the differance, I would sugest 1, any repqair or (rebuild) prior to a era of Colecting era has been established my be in the era of (making usable again) A example is my one 1847 colt walker, purchased it in Mexeco in 1948 for the pricly sum of $1.50) american only silver coin) and the 1of 1000 38WCF in the same hotel for the total American amount of .80 cents silver, both had seen tremedous use, and had even hand made screws and springs in them, rifling was burnt out by black powder etc, no original finish is left and Turner Kirland and I got the things working again! are these frauds? or just representitve items of a area? No they are not for sale! > However in the past 58 years of modern colecticting and modern methods I have seen more fakes and outright frauds than can be expected! With new and the aquiring of old machinery from descards of factorys, thes guns are actualy beter than they were when new! except they are outright frauds for finacial gain! They are rather easy to detect, ( I will not disclose that as then the fraud folks will do it better) Engraving is one area that is now a lot better than the original, springs , screws, and other parts are made in INDIA etc (I may get deleated again) italy is now making reproductions with material beter than the original guns and a lot safer to shoot! reinactment groups and modern hunters can use them with utmost saftey, and the original companies like colt have allowed them by law to do it. As for reels, the cut off point is, (after reels became big business in the collecting field, and that is a rather modern time of lets say after 1945 or end of World war 2 , Can I be held as a fraud maker by the Christmas reels I made for the Man that had everythig? ie a red Ambasidor and a green 5500d grren sideplate? in the 60s? Or the repair person in a tackle shope with (kits of parts, a fisherman comes in and needs the reel fixed, the shop puts in a bronson gear in a Shakesper and presto the reel is fixed , Ocean city parts will work in the van hoffs , fraud or repair? Steve its true new rules must be in place, and soon as we old guys are and will enyer the wonderfull fishing grounds in the sky! The job will be a hard one, HOWEVER all of US must work and share or combined Knowledge and then write the rules and see that its published! and very soon! the same goes for older rods ie bamboo, Our rod man can make a junker look as new! and lables are easly duplicated with modern computors! and lures? hey if any of you new how much (original paint and air brushes I have from PAW PAW that came with the Company I bought from Jack masters ? well we could repaint all the lures now in existance of PAW PAWand the molds etc, yup E-Z action Products Company I now own, no As long as I have it the frauds wont hit the market! What happens when I die? no garrentees! Nuf for now , lets get this thing going and Steve you will have My utmost Co-operation, Col. Milton Lorens aka SWIM JIG your ohio deciding state conection

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Post by Harvey »

My two and a half cents.
I think a set of rules should be adopted by ORCA on
just the subject of repair or replacing newly made parts
to render the reel as original. We can not dictate whether
a person up grades his reel for monetary gain because
that would bring the polishing aspect back into it. We all
know collectors that specialize in making parts from
scratch to repair broken ones. In my way of thinking,
that should not be allowed but then again, how do you
stop it? If we decide to set forth a set of rules on keeping
the antiquity of an antique reel, we should make them
loose enough so they can be used as guide lines, not a
definite set of laws. It seems like that would be awful
hard to enforce and then again it is up to the honesty
of the collector to do the right thing
I am off my stump.
Harvey

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Post by Ron Mc »

A set of offical ORCA guidelines is a great idea.
Obviously would make a great article.

Sounds like a committee activity, though. To formalize the guidelines and keep them updated as needed.

I don't think it's a question of what should be allowed or not, simply how to charcterize and document what has been done in the history of a reel.

Cleaning to remove the funk, old line, old lubricant, deposits, etc., can be necessary to stop deterioration in a reel.

Alterations to make a reel function obviously affect it's value - one way or the other - they just need to be documented and classified.

Then there are alterations for personal asthetics. These do (and should) devalue the reel. (Although a polished brass Sal-Trout on ebay usually brings 4-5 times the original condition.)

One example I have - an old DAM Effzett that was badly dealloyed. I polished it, patinated (blued) it and lacquered it. This was for my personal asthetics - I fished it. A friend who's a DAM collector was going to break my arm if I didn't sell him that reel. Mechanically, everything on the reel is original, except the finish. I would consider what I did to decrease the value of the reel - everyone involved knew the history, and my friend paid me top dollar for it.

In time, though, the patina I put on it will probably age even prettier, and it will look very different than all the old red ones out there.

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Did we read the same article

Post by Reel Geezer »

Steve, those were very interesting articles, and do point out the problems that ORCA will have to face sometime. However, I can't help but wonder if we all read the same article. I read nothing that made me change my mind that restorations are often necessary and in rare reels they are of value.

The author stated:

"Inherent in the collection and investment in any antique, including antique firearms, is a concern about the amount and type of restoration and/or repair that can be tolerated. Obviously certain repairs and restorations are necessary, required and expected, some are not. Some have practically no impact on the ultimate value of the piece in question while others impact the price greatly."

I can't claim to have Turner Kirkland (yes Milt, I know of him) help me with my guns, but I have owned a number of quality firearms over my years, including what is considered to be the finest John Browning single shot rifle ever found (which I found in a basement in Boise, and is now owned by the Browning family, who paid $20,000 for the gun). I have only seen guns improved by restoration when done by quality gunsmiths. I also found an Ansley Fox 12 ga 3" mag gun similar to the one memoralized by Nash Buckingham as his bo-whoomps. The current owner of this shotgun has spent thousands restoring the gun to the original condition and better. It is worth far more than it was when I bought it in an Oregon junk store for $100. I'd rather own these guns as they now appear than they were as I found them. It's the same way with fishing reels.

The day will come when we will have dealers at our shows selling nothing but parts for reels. Junkers will be stripped for all their parts, remanufactured parts will be available (as they currently are) and collectors will be restoring their reels with original or remanufactured parts.

I know we had this discussion about a year ago, and nothing was resolved at that time, nor will it be now - unless ORCA recognizes that a reel with gears in it (even if replacements) is better than a reel that is original, but has gears with broken teeth. Many of those who observe this board don't agree, and would rather have a broken original reel than a restored one. That's their choice.

This is my opinion, and no one has shown me any reason to change since we last had the discussion. Guidelines will be helpful, but there would have to be lots of input before anything could be resolved.

Now, I've had my say, and I'll disappear, while the bricks are thrown.

Phil :bricks:

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Post by Steve »

Geezer, I think you tossed the first brick already. The fact that we've addressed this issue before and have not resolved anything suggests that we still have no formal standards on restoration and repair, and we're still flailing about when we discuss these things. I think it's ORCA's responsibility to set such standards, now that the hobby has matured. Sure, it will be difficult to arrive at a consensus on this sort of thing, but a set of guidelines would be invaluable for not only experienced collectors, but all newbies.

And we're not talking about ordinances the club would have to enforce. Just a set of guidelines that a serious collector can consider when he's trying to decide whether or not to drill that Julius vom Hofe hole through the foot of the fly reel he just picked up. People can do whatever they want with their reels, but guidelines would at least provide buyers with a bit of objectivity when trying to determine the value of a potential buy. All part of "education," I think.

(Maybe the SIG chairmen could comprise a committee to draw up some standards.)

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Restoration

Post by Brian F. »

This is how I view it and not necessarily what I'm suggesting for the club. I like to look at and own reels that don't look like junk. I try to find the best and if I can't (which is nearly 90% of the time), then I prefer they be cleaned, polished, repaired or restored in that order to whatever extent it takes to make me satisfied.

It wouldn't matter to me much if a part's been replaced with something accurate in terms of design and date. It would be much more important for me to know if it's been fabricated new. A handle knob or foot perhaps seem to be likely candidates. That would make me consider the price (or at least use that fact to get a lower price!)

I do try to learn about the things I collect to be able to tell if something is replaced or not right. In that sense, if I were to recommend something, perhaps the club should put forth more information on the subject in order to educate people and make them aware that it is possible to encounter this kind of situation when collecting reels.

It may not be possible to set up rules because of everyone's personal preferences. I suppose that's why you have those that like to restore antique cars with complete accuracy and those that like to turn them into hotrods. Each approach seems to be very popular. I have NEVER, however, heard of anyone collecting cars and leaving them in disrepair or rusty or letting them continue to rust out because changing a part would make them non-original.

I would like to see something set to deal with the most serious instances of outright fraud, if that is possible. I tend to think everyone is on the level but the reality of it and human nature being what it is, it's always a possibility. If I heard right and delete me if I'm spreading rumors, a while back there was a case where a contemporary reel maker who specialized in making vom Hofe style fly reels tried to pass one off as an authentic vom Hofe reel in a "never before seen size". As I understand it, the fraud was uncovered and the maker was asked to leave the club. Now that seems serious but how often would something like that happen?

I'm for keeping things simple so, like the rest of the ORCA mantra, I say do the best we can to educate people on the subject.

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Post by john elder »

Re Brian's point about cars, I have a '61 corvette driver (ie., I use it, don't tow it)...happy divorce present in 1982...love that car and get thumbs up from someone every time I take it on the road. There is very little original about it...parts are all now fabricated and you'd go broke trying to keep everything original and I've never tried (and is it truly original if the bumpers have been replaced with the correct bumpers from another car?). It's pointless, unless you want to enter shows that specialize in all original condition...like the Dam reel a couple clicks above, I've got a line of people trying to buy that car and it's not because it's mint original. As an aside, I had a '61 in '64...I did alot of my own work on that car and corvette parts were expensive then, too...I recall replacing an 18 in section of tailpipe thru the x-frame using a new piece made for a '59 Ford pick-up for 95 cents, since virtually the identical corvette pipe cost $13.95! So, like Phil and Brian, I think there's room to allow for repairs...better to repair the side-plates on some of those old Pfl saltwater reels than send them off for parts or doorstops.

Pardon me going on, but a note about clubs and rules. During one of the NFLCC fire-fights that have been on Joes board, one of the founding members noted that the club basically started with a bunch of guys sitting around with beer and baits and decided to make a club. Then they set down some guideline rules as to how baits should be graded and what should be tolerated...and it was specifically called fishing lure collectors club to cover all areas, not just $2000 antique minnows. Now, a couple decades later, you got guys worshiping those rules like the little stuffed animals in Toy Story whorshipping The Claw. And just the other day, a fellow posted that he had unknowingly sold a counterfeit lure and wanted to know how many days the NFLCC rules said that he was responsible...and someone pointed out that it was 14! Excuse me?! Does anyone for a minute think he should have stiffed the buyer here because the guy never figured out that the lure was counterfeit til after 14 days?! ...but I digress...point is, when you set rules, they better be good ones! Someone may be whorshipping them in 10 years or so!

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Post by Reel Geezer »

Steve: I didn't throw a single brick. I just stated the problems. I said that I thought guidelines would be of value, if it is possible to write them. I mainly thought it interesting that the author was talking about the necessity of restoration in firearms and how much should be tolerated. However, the previous messages on this board seemed to read exactly the opposite. That's not the way I read his article.

I wonder how we can write guidelines, however, when Harvey, Jim Madden, and I'm sure many other members don't believe in replacing parts (which is their privilege), and Brian, myself, and others think that restoration is sometimes necessary.

Perhaps you should write up a set of guidelines and we can then discuss them here on the board. Then after some sort of consensis they could be presented to the members, and then to the Board of Directors.

However, I'm inclined to agree with Brian that education is the answer.

Incidentally, didn't they just restore the Sistine Chapel?

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Restoration

Post by Jim Madden »

No bricks to throw - maybe just a couple of pebbles. I recall the debate a year ago and remember in the end just letting it drop, agreeing to disagree. It might be time to set up some guidelines as a reference, but first we probably need to at least agree on some vocabulary of our own. I only see the need for two terms. Original Replaced (OR) parts are those that come from a reel of the same era. That would include the exact same interchangeable parts found on another company's reel. I have always found that acceptable; it's likely that some of our reels were sent in for new pawls, bushings or level wind screws anyway. Yes, it may mean waiting around for years for a beater to show up. That's where we can really help each other. New Restored (NR) parts (or replatings) are those manufactured by other than the original company regardless of how professionally they were created. I don't condemn anyone for choosing to do that; we just don't have a blacklight tests like our lure friends to insure that the restored aren't passed on as original after a generation or two. I know we may preserve history by fully restoring certain reels, but as Harvey once said, it's hard to have the same feeling toward one of those reels. It's a personal preference, and it may not bother anyone else, but I would want to know if I was about to buy a reel with a NR part. We can't stamp a scarlet NR on it, but an ORCA member should tell a buyer what has been restored before he sells. For many of our members, it won't make any difference. At least everything is up front for those who think it does. Jim

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Post by Steve »

Maybe it would be more useful and less controversial to talk about definitions instead of guidelines or rules. Then collectors could more accurately convey the extent of a restoration or repair. In time, the market will determine how such things affect value, as it has for umpteen other categories of antiques. Reel collectors would probably benefit from comparing condition:value relationships that have been established for a long time by collectors of such mechanical antiques as firearms and clocks.

Of course, lots of folks will continue to lie about such things, but that's a separate problem.

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Post by Harvey »

Man, I woke up an hour early this morning, and have learned
more than I did all last week. And I studied hard for a Blood test!

I really don't know the proper avenue
to take here. I am on Jim's side somewhat. I think parts should
be replaced by original parts from the same reel/company but
then again, in my Shakespeare parts box, the screws are not marked, "Marhoff, "Superior" etc. And I know that I am not gonna find a couple level wind carriers for the two "B" reels that I bought off him.

What concerns me is things
like taking a Meek or Talbot to an expert machinist like Tony
Dillender (whom I consider one of my dearest friends) and
have an identical handle or end cap made and those that know
Tony, know he can and does that with great precision. Oh sure,
when he returns the reel to me and I am among friends I might
mention that I had a new bearing cap made but after a few beers,
tears or years later, I would probably forget it when the value
goes up two-fold. Somewhere down the road when this reel finds
a newer home, A person or persons will check it out and
question the originality of said part. Or worse yet, in a discussion
with Tony, he explains that years ago, he made a new handle for
a Sage reel that just sold at Lang’s Auction.
This is much too deep for a pea size brain to figure out and my
pod isn’t developed to the fullest extent but I do think we should
consider some kind of guide lines for the sake of argument
down the road when something like this arises. At least, we
would have a guideline to fall back on if we argue either for the replacement part or against it.
I am sure that you can’t fool all the people all the time but with
the expertise some have, I am sure that some can fool some
of the people some of the time. (Did I make that up?) And someone else said that a fool and his money is easily parted. And to me, that can be done with newly made parts.
Just my opnion,
"H"

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Post by joe klaus »

My opinion(s) have evolved over the years. Obviously, time and experience are teachers. But if that's true, why do we have differences of opinion amongst some of those on the Board that have been at this "game" for the longest period of time and garner the most respect from other collectors? I don't know.

But I now consider "restoration" to be a problem. To me, restoration means replacing a part with any other part that was not acquired by cannibalizing another reel to acquire an identical part. I would not have a problem replacing a screw on a Shakespeare reel that I cannibalized from a South Bend reel so long as the two screws were identical. But I would consider it "wrong" to call Tony and ask him to "make" me a screw to use as a replacement.

The reason I consider it to be a problem is that I could never define a "cut off point" when considering what was "O.K" to replace. If it's OK to obtain a screw from Tony, what about a handle. And then, what about a foot. And if all that's OK, why not just add a sideplate. Pretty soon you got an entire reel consisting of newly manufactured parts.

But then the question becomes, "how do you know that the part you acquired via cannibalization wasn't made by Tony? I don't have an answer.

I have a close relative that owns a VERY big machine shop (one of the largest in Houston) with equipment having a total cost of multi-millions of dollars. He was at my home for our annual "relatives Christmas party" several years ago, and I showed him one of the rarest reels I owned (pre-1900 era) and asked if he could duplicate it. The answer was--"absolutely yes. If you get me the specs, I can duplicate that reel to the extent that it will not be detectible". I didn't ask him what it would cost. I just dropped the subject. We had that conversation several years ago, and I've never mentioned it to him again.

That scares the hell out of me. I KNOW for sure that we have a number of other collectors that post on this board frequentlly that also know that even the rarest of rare can be duplicated if you know the right people and have the money. But I've never discussed it with anyone. And I even question my own wisdom in discussing it publicly now.

When I talk about duplicating the rarest of the rare, I'm not talking about Tony Dillenger. I'm talking about shops with computerized machines that can do anything your imagination allows you to dream of.

I would assume it would be a rare, rare occasion in which a collector would have access to a machine shop that could do the job and also be willing to do the job. And then the question would be "how much is it going to cost to get that reel duplicated? Is it worth it? " The type of machine shop that I'm talking about doesn't turn one of those machines on for peanuts. So I can't precisely define a "problem", but simply know that it's out there (at least theoretically).

We have people that read this board that could define it much more precisely than I. I'm just throwing out this somewhat "vague" piece of information for some additional consideration.

I think all we can do is set forth some guidelines for members of the Club and rely upon honesty. Perhaps defining restoration, minor restoration, major restoration etc. would be at least one step in the right direction.

I apologize for the rambling nature of this discourse. My worry is more of a "feeling" than anything else, and it's not easy to articulate.

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Post by Ron Mc »

everyone's woes here perfectly describe the need for a committee and for established guidelines.

You don't limit what somebody can do to repair or restore a reel. You DEFINE it. That is exactly what has been done in the referenced articles.

Committee membership should be voluntary, and a quorum should be required to approve a document - which is then open to revision every xx number of years (3?).

In addition to these guidelines, the committee could prepare technical support articles - How to Clean a Reel, e.g.. All of these documents could be for sale as a source of income to ORCA.

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Post by Harvey »

Great idea Ron but I disagree about the sale of such information and articals. It should be published free and added into our Library so everyone can aquire it. We don't have to pay for our membership list or our by-laws. After all, we are a non-profit org.
Just my thoughts.
"H"

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Post by SWIM JIG »

:D :) 8) :!: :?: :idea: :arrow: :type: WHEEEE! well at least many are (alive) out there! Phill, what you say about the reconditioning of a clasic shot gun, rifle, pistol of modern era items is valid, Johnsons of Adrian MICH. restores and other companies do so on drillings etc.( its the made up work with (older metal of the period) on guns like a precusion Colt or a very early Jos. Hawkins of tenn. before they moved west is the frauds! Nuf on That for now! Lets stay with reels, ( I can advise all out there when we repair or refab a reel its well marked in ways of the watch repair person, ie. 2, reasond if item is stolen and recoverd we can prove to the courts its real owner, 3 if we have be dupped as to the true reason for the repair, we will call on the question section of the seller! I even do this for the charter Captains on their reels, as some do get stolen off their boats. Now as Harvy says , we or any of us that contribute to the actualities and other work ie cleaning etc. do so of our own free will and NO FEE SHOULD BE CHARGED! if this happens, oust the rascles from the club at once!) As for Joe K. he is correct, and any JT. Vocational college with a CAD program can duplicate any item if they can aquire the (era) materials! FROGGY JIG learned that in his industrial machine shop class in High school. ( some examples, ) to fill in deep scratches on a surface( use electropalting , you must be very careful to clean the metal, then use wax around the surface thats not gouged, then procede to eletroplate the item, your depositing anode must be the same type of material as the surface you are plating! when the gouged area is even with suronding area , clean and polish and presto no more scratch or gouge! YUP you now have the basic idea. I told Brian on the big ISLAND how to fix hard rubber side plates, only way to detect? you would need to cut the plate apart)! Brian You reading this? People, I see in the future a day when reels, rods and Lures will be traded on WALL STREET like certain coins are at this time, And if our work is done properly then after we are gone , our future collectors will be able to spot the frauds! There is much more to this and it must be wrote down! The question to clean or polish? I would not call that fraud, we do this with collector cars, guns, etc. restoration? a deep subject, if its marked easy or documented as such as the Chaple? why not, However these fake Boxes, paperwork and reels lures etc>? Thats not needed, ( In some states if the value is over a certain amount its a felony! Ky. $100.00) Folks lets get our commitie up and running! asap! Col. Milton Lorens aka SWIM JIG your Ohio conection and the DECIDING STATE !

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Post by Ron Mc »

Harvey, I am active in several nonprofit professional societies, and they exist to sell paper - especially to nonmembers.
OK, that's not true - they exist to write professional guidlines, which happen to be for sale, especially to nonmembers.

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Post by Harvey »

Ron,
I welcome your ideas but I feel that information should
be free. The only reason that such information should be
charged for is in the case of printing cost, cost of paper etc.
If we decide to set up a list of guidelines as what you should
or could do to preserve the antiquity of a fishing reel or any
other tackle for that matter, why would you want to charge a
fee for something that makes the hobby more sound. If ORCA
is that broke, I will donate another dollar when I pay my dues.
It is just like our Library. When I was the designated Librarian,
and was called upon for information, My first decision was to
try to get nonmembers to join ORCA. I must admit, with a
chance to be burned at the stake, that I did help a lot of
nonmembers with questions, in the search information and
anything that I could. I guarantee you that the good will
was repaid tenfold either in the addition of new members,
additions to the Library or even respect for our club. Not to
be an old “Fuddy-Duddy” but I get tired of seeing and hearing the “Dollar” word when it is something that most of us do
for the love of the hobby and have had to rely upon others
to gain the knowledge that we have as a whole. If I or
anyone else had to pay for all the information we possess,
we couldn’t afford to buy reels.
I am not wanting to start a big bru-ha-ha over this but
I am concerned what further people will think when they
see that in order to get a set of guidelines on what is
proper and what is not, they have to pay for what should
be free to all.
Enough! That is my story and I am sticking to it.
Don't worry Ron, We are still friends and you have my
upmost respect for your opnions.
Harvey :wink:

Wait, I ain't done yet!
As for Joe's comments about new machined parts, We had and may still have a member that was making side plates for VH reels out of old hard rubber bowling balls. All his stuff was computerized and with a CAD program, he could reproduce the EZACT items without ever laying a hand on the original. I sat in his garage one afternoon and watched him do just that and they looked original to me.
"H"

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Post by Ron Mc »

I don't consider us at odds, Harvey - just discussing the topic.

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Post by SWIM JIG »

:) 8) :shock: :!: :?: :idea: :arrow: :doh: Ok Harvy, true you can make plates out of bowling balls and those are so easly detected they say and screem (PHONY) all over the place ha ha ha , Now you ( old FOX) I am certain you will figure it out pronto! As you had the all the printed ifo for years , and one thing you do is READ! and STUDY , and SOLVE problems! To do those plates you were probaly the one of a few that read how it was done, just think back again, if not email me, As for free imfo for members yes yes yes , and if the cost of printing and paper gets in the way, We could ask for a donation or ask for postage , Ron ORCA is not flush, It can be if we all work at signing up new members and doing things to keep our old members! Each of us could do a small article each issue and have it published in the REEL NEWS, like a ongoing ( as the wife watches SOAPS) that way the members would have to stay in ORCA to get all the imfo, also they too may contribute to the articals, One small problem is how to sort out fiction and fantasy from the true facts! Could have a disclamer its the Oppion Of The writer and list name and address? OK you guys and gals start to work! COL. M. LORENS aka SWIM JIG your deciding state < OHIO

joe klaus
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Post by joe klaus »

I would like to clarify my previous comments a tad bit.

I don't think it's "wrong" to use a newly manufactured part to restore a reel so long as there is a full disclosure.

I understand that problems can arise "later" if one uses a new part to refurnish but again, I don't have an answer for that problem.

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john elder
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Post by john elder »

hmmmm...so that's probably the origin of that Brunswick Fireball reel I bought off the 'bay! Darn, it looked 1905, but the finger holes were in the wrong places :)

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Harvey
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Post by Harvey »

John, You have to watch those "Fireball" reels. The only diffrent I could find between the 1905 and 1906 was the holes are a little closer together. maybe that was for fishing down a narrower lane.
"H" :?:

reels4me

Rules,conscience,etc.,etc.,

Post by reels4me »

As the old man in the movie "Moonstruck" said...'I`m confused'...but
rules can be written forever, they don`t mean a *D.A.M. reel* thing, if not
enforced, and who does that ? Our conscience will have to suffice, if
enough articles are written as guidelines and expelling one found
guilty of fraud ( NO exceptions ) NO political BS! That should set the
precedence.

GeigerNY
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Better late then never

Post by GeigerNY »

I know I am late on this one but I think it is important for the Club . As collectors and members we need to define some of the terms we use so all have a common ground to work from. An a set of guidlines would also give guidence for some collectors. As a Club perhaps we could keep this alive and have a discussion in Texas.
George Geiger

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