Hard Rubber and Vinegar...some tests

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john elder
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Hard Rubber and Vinegar...some tests

Post by john elder »

this theme started with another thread where concern was expressed about exposing hard rubber sideplates to vinegar when cleaning corrosion from metal parts ( viewtopic.php?f=6&t=16304 ). The main concern was that the vinegar would turn the plates "brown" instead of the desired black color the rubber had when new. My contention has been that the treatment might be pulling oils and dirt out of the side plates, causing them to lighten but that this did not constitute damage to the hard rubber. However, I certainly don't want to suggest methods that will cause more harm than good!

I did a test with a Pflueger sideplate that showed no effect of the vinegar, but Brian Funai pointed out that the material was likely bakelite. Here I performed a similar test using an early Edward Vom Hofe side plate. the plate was suspended in vinegar for appr. 8 hours, then rinsed and dried. As you can see, there is certainly a line where the plate was exposed to vinegar and the hard rubber has lightened relative to the non-exposed area:



However, note that when looking at the inner surface that has not been (damaged by UV) over the years, the vinegar has not changed the color of the rubber. It has, however, removed the corrosion from the NS rim:


it occurred that the difference might be due to soaking in water rather than an effect of the vinegar, so I then soaked the whole plate just in water for a couple hours, then dried and wiped the plate off. In the process, I wiped out lubrication from the inner plate surface and when I wiped the outer surface with the same rag, I likely put oil back on the rubber. The result was that the difference between the portion that got the vinegar soak and the part that did not is now inapparent:


and no line on the inner, (non-sun-exposed) hard rubber surface.


As you can see, this plate is heavily faded from UV exposure (edited, based on conversation below with Marius) with age and as described in the other thread, needs treatment with wet/dry sandpaper or emery cloth and Simichrome to remove that (damage) and bring the plate back to original black finish. However, at least this test did not reveal damage due to vinegar treatment. Perhaps others can add their experiences to this thread if they have other information.
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Brian F.
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Re: Hard Rubber and Vinegar...some tests

Post by Brian F. »

John, I know most use diluted vinegar. What was the mixture of water and vinegar? I should check my ORCA Reel Restoration book right! Maybe it depends on the mixture?
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Re: Hard Rubber and Vinegar...some tests

Post by marius »

i'm curious to know what is meant by oxidized; as all reels are more or less constantly exposed to air, would it be the rays from the sun that turnes the hard rubber brownish?
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john elder
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Re: Hard Rubber and Vinegar...some tests

Post by john elder »

Brian, i typically use 1 part vinegar to 1 or two parts water....more a matter of needed volume for a particular reel than concern about concentration. I have used vinegar straight as well and never found a problem, but probably should do a comparison.

Marius, you are correct. I mis-spoke calling the issue "oxidation". It is no doubt UV exposure that causes the surface damage to the rubber. Often, the damage will be worse on the faceplate than backplate just because the reel (on rod) spends most of its life "face" up. I have modified dialogue above and indicated this exchange. I mainly kept thinking oxidation assuming any "fading" from the vinegar treatment was due to oxidation by the weak acetic acid treatment.

Late add: note also dialogue re UV-driven oxidation:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photo-ox ... f_polymers
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marius
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Re: Hard Rubber and Vinegar...some tests

Post by marius »

thanks a lot john :)

one more question:
here in norway, vinegar can be strong or weak. typical vinegar for food is 7%. what strength and type of vinegar do you use?
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Paul M
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Re: Hard Rubber and Vinegar...some tests

Post by Paul M »

John:
Thanks for posting this. The topic had me wondering. I had not tried anything more aggressive on Bakelite/rubber than Simichrome and now I realize a new application of the auto finishing papers that Don C introduced me to for problematic finishes on brass reels. Interesting!
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Re: Hard Rubber and Vinegar...some tests

Post by jimbofish »

marius wrote:thanks a lot john :)

one more question:
here in norway, vinegar can be strong or weak. typical vinegar for food is 7%. what strength and type of vinegar do you use?
All the bottles we have are 5%. If it's being mixed 1:2 with water, the difference should be unimportant, IMHO.
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Brian F.
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Re: Hard Rubber and Vinegar...some tests

Post by Brian F. »

Paul M wrote:....now I realize a new application of the auto finishing papers that Don C introduced me to for problematic finishes on brass reels. Interesting!
Sorry if I completely missed it if he mentioned them before but what are these papers that Don gave you the heads up on? Are they mentioned in the ORCA restoration book?
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Paul M
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Re: Hard Rubber and Vinegar...some tests

Post by Paul M »

Brian:
I just checked and they are in fact described (twice) in the section Don wrote but not in the specific context of removing brown rubber. I posted a few months ago about a brass reel finish problem and Don and some others pointed out these automotive finishing papers. The process works great but you almost always have to be prepared to "go all the way". Here is the product I am using (as infrequently as possible). The key is to start with a low number and work through consecutive grits. Using up to the 2000 grit shown below on an old brass reel results in a mirror finish.

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Re: Hard Rubber and Vinegar...some tests

Post by Paul M »

I had to try it! This is a small unmarked reel in the style of a 4 Bros Delite. I took it through my cleaning process including a 50% vinegar solution in a heated ultrasonic cleaner, resulting in light brown exterior surface as shown in John's experiment pics. During the cleaning and polishing process I used the following sequence of automotive wet paper: 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1500 & 2000, followed by more polishing ending with Simichrome. The rubber is now a shiny pitch black like a bowling ball with no application of oil needed whatsoever to make it shiny. I compare it to a Delite that had previously been cleaned but with just a light polish using Simichrome. In comparison the rubber of the Delite is light brown and dull. I am really happy to have learned about this. I will no longer fear putting rubber reels through the water/vinegar process. There is an hour's worth of elbow grease invested to go through all the grits in sequence and to go back to the start if you miss a spot or two, but IMHO it is definitely worth the effort. Thanks John and Don!

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Brian F.
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Re: Hard Rubber and Vinegar...some tests

Post by Brian F. »

Nice! Thanks Paul (and Don)!
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