Replating old parts?

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JeffK
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Replating old parts?

Post by JeffK »

Every so often I end up with a vintage fly reel that is just fine other than plating loss on the pillars and foot. A recent acquisition is a (probable) Montague single action 60 yarder with excellent, solid hard rubber plates, a half handle, and surface corrosion on the metal parts. Has anyone met with any success having parts replated?

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john elder
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Post by john elder »

Jeff: this Q comes around about every 6 months or so...I feel your pain, but I don't believe I've ever heard a consensus opinion that recommended replating. First, it's hard to get a good job done and certainly not cheap...most quality reela are not plated and by the time you pay to have it done to a reel like your Montague, you haven't gained squat. the item is no longer original, so the argument by some would be that it's a fraudulent act, unless you plan on living forever and attending your own estate sale. In general, what I've found is that after cleaning these old veterans up and having them on "best side" display for 6 months, I just don't notice those flaws much...they're just nice old pieces to look at...it only matters if you go to sell or trade it and then the issue of originality comes into play.
Just enjoy that old beast til better xomes along.

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Harvey
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Post by Harvey »

In my humble opinion, that's a no-no. And if you do, can you still call it "'Vintage"? And if you still call it that, wouldn't it be vintage 2005?
Just thinkin'
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Post by joe klaus »

I've never seen a replated part yet that was undectable when I put it under magnification. And I always look at a reel that was originally plated under magnification if I "care" about it.

And if I purchase one that's replated or partially replated, and the fact hasn't been previously disclosed, it will go back to the seller in a new york minute. The replated parts are totally worthless and therefore the reel becomes a "parts" reel to me.

I would never do it or recommend that anyone else do it.

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Post by Reel Geezer »

Joe: I'm curious now. How many times have you found replated parts? As far as I'm aware, I've never bought a replated reel or part. I did see some in a display that many ORCAns are aware of, but I'm wondering if you think this is as much of a problem as repainted lures and we're just not aware of it.

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Post by Brian F. »

There is a regular seller on ebay that offers maybe 3-6 reels a week. He has sold tons of reels, ranging from very common to moderately rare, but always decent stuff. He occasionally identifies what he sells as having been replated. I can't tell sometimes, however, the difference between what he identifies as replated and some others that he sells that are not ID'd as replated, as they look very similar to the replated ones. The interesting thing is that the reels he says are replated do not have a very bright chrome finish, as if you were to take it to a shop (which would be very easy to spot). The replated reels from this seller look more like a satin nickel finish. The funny thing is that when I asked him about how he re-plated his reels, he answered "I do not and have not replated any of my reels", leaving then the only possible assumption that he got them that way?

This seller is also the first person I've seen sell what I suspected was a patched hard rubber plate on an otherwise nice Pflueger Avalon, but this was not identified in the auction.

I've never ended up with any of the re-plated reels (or patched Avalon, of course) from this seller so I have never been able to study them in person other than the auction photos.

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Post by Ron Mc »

sometime last year - and I didn't take notes, there was an ebay seller with a gang of replated reels. I could see it in his photographs, by the grainy appearance of the plating. I asked him about it, and he got ugly.

The original plating process was so slow and produced such fine grains, that the reels parts out of the bath with a mirror finish. Unless you have access to a plating shop, a quality plating is cost-prohibitive. And even then, most processes in use are for industrial applications, hard, not decorative. There are beaker-scale processes and solutions available, both electro- and electroless - these give really big grains and very dull appearance on the coating.

And as your reel parts go, some surfaces bright, some pitted, some dealloyed - getting a uniform plating is next to impossible by any process.

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Post by piscesman »

I know the discussion is about replating but what about repainted reels? I'm sure there are many unknowns out there. Last year a guy auctioned off a ton of Mitchell reels. Received very high prices. He had a 1st and 2nd version MINT IN BOX. Funny thing though. He stated that the 2nd version was stripped, repainted and baked twice in the oven. Reel sold for around $2000. How can it be MIB if it was a repaint! He never mentioned if he marked it repaint either. I'm sure the person that bought the reel isn't going to mark repaint if and when it is resold. He was up front about the repaint but it still brought a very large price. Is there a way to tell if a reel has been repainted other than a poor paint job? Thanks.
Kim :? :? :? :|

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replated parts

Post by joe klaus »

In response to Phil's query.

I've never bought a reel that had replated parts that were not previously disclosed. I have purposely bought replated reels so that I could inspect them. There is one seller on ebay that I respect that sells re-plated reels "occasionally", but he discloses this in his desription.

His re-plates are high quality (in my opinion). Since I've bought reels from him "every once in awhile" for 2 or 3 or 4 years, I've become acquainted with him "a little bit", but it's pretty much a first name basis. And I've previously posed some questions to him about the "re-plates", and he's promised to chat with me sometime, but we've never gotten around to it (I haven't bought anything from him in probably 6 or 8 months and have lost contact somewhat).

But anyhows---from what I've been able to piece together--this seller inherited these reels from a closet collector, and he's been selling them slowly but surely over quite a long period of time.

It's nothing in the super high dollar range. The vast majority are in the 50 to 500 range. And he has tons of boxes, and I have no doubt that he's honest. I bought one reel from him that was re-plated and not disclosed, but I think it was an accident. It was not high dollar, and I didn't bother to complain, because he has helped me acquire some reels that I really like.

As you know, I collect "some" Shakespeares, and there are substantial numbers of "good" Shakespeare reels that are plated. And if I pay more than $100 for a plated reel, I'll look at it under magnification. I've not seen a Shakespeare reel that I thought was re-plated.

I don't consider myself an "expert" on re-plating. But I've learned a little from experience. Unfortunately, I'm not able to disclose my observations because such would actually "assist" someone that was trying to re-plate. And I'm vehemently against replates.

I do believe that John made an excellent (and correct) point in saying that plated reels usually aren't "worth enough" to go to the trouble of re-plating. Therefore there is not enough motivation to make it a problem at this time. Whereas in the lure collecting field, the right color on the right lure turns it into gold. Conclusion: Replates aren't even close to being the same problem as lure re-paints.

There are tangents to the problem. If you're a collector that acquires lots of reels of all kinds and a wide range of values, it's not unusual at all to acquire a reel that has a part that "doesn't look right". Or there's just something about it that makes you uneasy. In such an instance, I normally suspect that it has replaced parts which are incorrect. And this is really the BIG problem that I enounter.

And another tangent is when you get a reel (that you're not familiar with) that has a part that you just don't think looks right. There's "something about it". But after inquiry, you find that the weird lookng part is absolutely 100% correct. I've been wrong on quite a few occasions. Therefore, I'm slow to allege that a part is "wrong" until I've had occasion to compare it to a reel that is a "known"correct.

I'm a former lure collector, and I quit collecting lures, because I became concerned that re-paints were going to destroy the hobby. Therefore, I admit to being somewhat paranoid about this whole idea of "restoration" of reels if it involves replacement of original parts. I do not oppose cannibalizing an original reel to acquire CORRECT re-placement parts for another.

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Post by joe klaus »

Brian:

I apologize for not reading your post before writing my response to Phil. Obviously, you know the ebay seller to whom I refer, and I'm sure that others on this board know him too.

He's quite truthful in saying that he never re-plated anything :)

But his predecessor did. I've never acquired a reel from him with hard rubber side plates that I thought were patched. (I didn't acquire tha Avalon :)

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Post by Brian F. »

Joe, I understand your comment on how you don't wish to share the experience you have in detecting replated reels. I have had discussion with others on similar problems with other types of re-worked reels.

Just a general question to everyone here: might there be a way to help people, such as myself, that don't know what to look for or that could benefit from your knowledge and keep from ending up with a replated reel? Seems like a catch 22 situation and much like the NFLCC, whose members don't want to discuss fraud techniques openly either, ORCA exists to spread information. Just a thought and although it would reach only a limited number of members but maybe one way would be to have the information presented in a National seminar and not for re-print in the Reel News.

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replating issues

Post by hurdpete »

Hi Folks:

Hope you all had a good Thanksgiving! I just wanted to put in my 2 cents worth about this thread- THANKS! I'm a new convert to the hobby, and information like you all have shared here helps me greatly in avoiding (hopefully) some of the more common newbie mistakes, even if it's an area that I'm not currently involved in (Hurds don't have plating issues)- I have noticed a tendency towards mission creep, where I am getting interested in stuff that I was not originally looking at. This kind of information REALLY helps!

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Post by joe klaus »

For the record, I'd like to add a couple more comments to this thread.

First: I said that I inspected all plated reels that I paid more than $100 for under magnification. This is not true. The list of sellers is much too long to include everyone that I "trust" without a 2nd thought, but I've bought reels, over the years, from Phil White, Bill Muth, Steve Vernon, Bill Land, Jim Madden, Jim Schottenham, Harvey Garrison, Bill Bush, and many, many others and I really don't do anything with those reels except glance at them and put them on the shelf. I KNOW I left off a LOT of other guys that belong on the list above but I named those guys because their names just popped into my mind, and they're representative of so many members of ORCA that are really straight shooters. I could have easily named 24 more if I wanted to but I'm not trying to "honor" all of the good guys.

Second: I don't want to hold myself out to be "holier than thou" when it comes to the question of restoration/replacement parts. I readily admit that I have "thousands?" of screws, handles, handle nuts etc etc out in my workshop. And if I get a reel that's missing screws or handle nut (or whatever) and I can find one that fits, I'm probably going to use it. BUT, if and when I sell that reel (and it's usually on eBay), my description of the reel will include a comment along the following lines: "looks like a couple of screws have been replaced" or "handle nut doesn't look right".
And I try to provide very clear pictures of the "questionable" parts.

Moral of Story: Anytime you see an item on ebay and the seller says that a couple of screws MAY have been replaced, you may as well bet the bank that they are replacements.

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Post by Brian F. »

Well HERE's something I've never seen before: a reel that was plated but has been painted! Hurts my eyes just to look at it!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... PcY_BID_IT

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Post by john elder »

Hey, Brian...that's a great idea for those old penns that can still be put to work but are pitted beyond salvage! Go look at his other reels...the speckled powder coating on the spools and other parts is a kick!

Not the best idea for a collector, but great to rescue those fishables!

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plating

Post by hurdpete »

Brian:

You've gotta admit -it's distinctive!

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Post by Brian F. »

I know one member who had his Senator re-painted but thought you'd all like to see how things are progressing for this particular business: http://orcaonline.org/images/pixel.gif ... index.html

Although I did not contact the seller about this reel, I wondered what they meant by restored inside and out?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-PENN-712-Sp ... dZViewItem

I'm toying with the idea of having one of my reliable fishing reels done just to extend it's life a abit (and ok, look slick at the same time while fishing :lol: ). Is this something future collectors will have to be more vigilant about if my "user" fishing reel becomes collectible?

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Post by john elder »

The real nice thing here is that it keeps some good tackle in the game when otherwise, it would just be in the parts pile...and not very good parts! The idea of fixing something free of guilt about violating a historical trust is something that hits home with me. I have so many dead Penns and penn parts, I may just be inspired here!

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Post by Ron Mc »

Here's a Heddon Imperial that I stripped and repainted the spool - someone had first painted over the dried grease and line varnish. The handle was frozen solid as all too common on these reels, so I had first drilled out the old handle rivet and removed everything, drag gear included. I stripped it with carburetor cleaner (toluene) and painted it with Rustoleum. (Note: keep solvents away from plastic handles.)

Image

The frame has the original anodizing - and you can tell the difference
Image
Last edited by Ron Mc on Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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repaints

Post by fishbugman »

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-PENN-712-Sp ... dZViewItem

That same seller is starting to repaint ABU reels also and has destroyed many Waltco Ny-o-Lite reels. The wording they use doesn't say repainted to unoriginal colors, but more like restored inside and out. BEWARE!

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repaints

Post by ABUBO »

Hi,
First of all I enjoy reading the comments to this delicate question, that will always be a puzzle to any colllector, cause what if...? Reading the different issues/experiences in here makes you somewhat alert, and that's a good thing cause you don't want to buy a 'spoiled up' reel believing it is an original.
I can't agree more with those of you saying that repaints really su..s! :x

I have a few ABU's that I suspect have been repainted - in spots at least if not alll over!? As I'm not even close to selling my collection, I will live with that "fact(?)". However I do mention any and all suspecious things on my reels in my collector reel database, so if I should suddently pass away and my collection be sold, it's possible to gather info on any repaints or otherwise 'fooled with' reels.

When that's said - repainting a fishing reel that you don't collect but only use for fishing - I don't see any harm in repainting at all. After all, if it's outer surface aint painted or otherwise protected, it won't work for long - especialy when used in sea water.

I guess we just have to be careful out there. Ask if in doubt - or don't buy.

Happy hunting,
Bo

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Post by Ron Mc »

With the piece in hand, I don't think there's any way to be fooled about original vs. refinished condition.
refinished (retouched with oxidizer - and it was ugly before - had to use polishing cloths to remove the corrosion):
Image

fished and treated well
Image

never fished
Image

could the other lead-finished reels be restored to this last condition? Possibly, but it would never be cost-effective to try.

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Post by Lillawill »

Dear All

After reading all the posts it is interesting to see the various comments for and against. As with most collectors I try to get reels in the best condition I can. However in saying that I also don't mind a reel looking sixty or a hundred years old. There is something about the petina and the ware marks that give an old reel its character and tells its story. Having a reel one hundred years old in mint pristine condition would be nice. However this reel has sat untouched and never used. It will not have the character of a reel that was used and cherrished and endured the test of time due to its original quality. I think as collectors we get caught up on the condition of a reel or a lure and this is an open invitation for fakers to take advantage of the situation. When you think about it we want to collect old stuff. Why do we want it to look new.

Bill Turnbull

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Post by Ron Mc »

someone in France has been replating brass reels:
http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... 4454873891
http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... 4454876178

even reels that weren't plated originally, like this DAM Effzett 465
http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... 4454878661

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Post by Farace »

Avoiding the issue of whether something should be replated or not, I thought I'd offer an observation in the "for what it's worth" category. One of my other hobbies is hand-cranked phonographs (I do have too many hobbies), and something I read in a guide to restoration said that there are two different types of nickel plating, dull nickel and bright nickel. Phonograph parts are generally plated with dull nickel, but most platers today are set up for bright nickel. The difference, if I remember correctly, has more to do with the electrolyte than the plating metal. Bright nickel looks wrong on phonograph parts. I suspect (but don't know for sure) that older reels, being made in the same generation as these phonographs, if being replated at all, should be plated with dull nickel.

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