Penn chrome parts not always brass

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Tom O.
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Penn chrome parts not always brass

Post by Tom O. »

I am a newby here, and this is my first post. I have been restoring Penn reels and reselling them on Ebay for a while. In the past I would simply purchase new rings, stands, etc for my projects. I realized at some point I wasn't making much of a profit, so I decided I would try re-chroming these parts myself.
Anyway to make a long story short, I discovered that not all of these parts are brass. I found several different parts from different reels to be some silvery metal. At first, I thought they were stainless steel, but I realized that can't be, because they had corrosion and pits just like the brass ones did. I have come to the conclusion that they are a nickel-copper alloy similar to the alloy used to make U.S. 5 cent pieces, but I have no way to verify this. A magnet will not stick to them. They were chrome plated just like the brass ones were, and the only way to tell the difference would be to remove the chrome plating. The brass parts had both nickel and chrome plating wheras these other parts were chromed right on the bare alloy.
Anyway, this is the first I have ever heard of this, and was wondering if there is some story to it.
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Post by Brian F. »

Not sure when it was discontinued, maybe late 50s but the Senator reels which came in the black boxes with the blue light house labels and the green boxes with the "surf fisherman" labels were indicated as german silver. Says that right on the label: "German Silver Frame, Chrome Plated".

Here's one that ended recently on ebay:

NS Senator

I don't know if all the green boxes through their time of production say "german silver" but I have one that does. So not sure when the material changed. I suspect the wording on the green boxes may have eventually disappeared.

Reels were made of "German" or nickel silver by many manufacturers up until post WWII. Other manufacturers like Pflueger also nickel plated their german or nickel silver reels also. I guess plating was cheaper than finishing the nickel or german silver but those bare alloys can be quite nice when polished. Others here can correct me or add to the history.
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Tom O.
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German Silver!

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Thanks Brian, I had no idea that Penn ever used such a material! I know there was a shortage of brass during WWII, maybe this was a factor. The reels in question are 3 Senator 2/0's, and one Squidder, both models were sold during the war. I don't have boxes for any of them.
Right now those silver parts are all polished and ready to chrome, but maybe I should forget about the chrome and reinstall the parts as they are. It would be inconsistant with the way Penn sold them, but if I chrome them and put the reels on Ebay, who would believe my claim that they are german silver?
Now I have to go back and find the posts that match. I wasn't going to mess with the posts because they are still relativly cheap to purchase. But luckily, I never throw anything away.
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Brian F.
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Post by Brian F. »

Tom, german and nickel silver were used in reels long, long before WWII created any shortage of materials. Others can surely give us a more accurate starting point.
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Post by Tom O. »

Brian, the reason I mentioned the WWII brass shortage, is I am familiar with the history of U.S. coinage. The 5 cent piece ("Nickel") has always been made of a copper nickel alloy. During the war, the need to make brass cartridge shells was so great that it caused a severe shortage of copper. So the U.S. mint changed the alloy for "nickels" to nickel and silver. Also pennies were made of zinc. I would think that a company, like Penn, so dependent on brass would have to make substitutions too. Silver while normaly much more valuable than copper, isn't used much in munitions manufacturing, so was available during these years.
I realize that many reels used silver in production, long before Penn even existed. But I believe these silver reels were more of a premium type reel than Penn ever was. Penn reels, while well designed and manufactured, were always intended to be a reel that anybody could afford.
That is why I was so surprized that Penn reels were ever made using silver. There is probably a lot more to the story of these silver parts, and if anybody has any knowledge about it, it would be appreciated.
Thanks again Brian for your help.
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Post by Brian F. »

Tom,

The reason why I do not think any particular shortage triggered Penn's use of nickel or german silver for frames is because of the prior timing and length of time GS/NS was used in all types of reels, even ones considered affordable. Consider the Senator is introduced in 1936, appearing as the country is emerging from the hard times of the depression. As for the material being costly- maybe not so much, other "affordable" companies used the same for many, many cheaply made, mass produced reels beginning in the late 1800s. Even when Penn started making reels in the early 30s, their closest relative, Ocean City, had been using german silver for at least 10 years earlier and Pflueger for at least 30. One of the most notable companies to use GS/NS was Montague, whose name you will see often on this board when people ask for IDs. While Montague reels are not made cheaply when considering our standards today, they sold a ton of them "for cheap" and hence there are many still around today to collect.
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Post by m3040c »

Hello Tom,

First, the nickels you are talking about made during the war used real Silver as a alloy, not German Silver. There is no real Silver in German Silver. German Silver is a Trade Name for a multitude of different alloy contents and qualities of alloy. There are many different grades of German Silver, none of them have any real Silver in them. I believe the contents of German Silver are different ratios of Tin, Copper, Nickel and Zinc, depending on who was doing the mix.

I tend to think that certain grades of German Silver and Brass are not too far away from each other in material cost. I could be wrong on this but I believe brass may be somewhat cheaper but the real reason for the tendency of reel companies to move over to brass was probably the friendliness of the stability of the alloy and the workability of brass verses German Silver.

The war years we have talked about before in the forum. Reel companies did not have material shortages, they had no materials and basically did not manufacture any reels during the war. A interesting little story about Kovalovski was that he swept up filings in his shop and was able to melt them down and manufacture one reel during WW II. Today that one reel is documented and owned by some lucky collector.

As for Penn, they had a ad campaign for lubricants and advised their customers to take better care of the reels they owned. I have been told that there were many Penn reels on the shelves of tackle shops from before the war stocks, that also kept the markets supplied.

The reel makers basically sold related stuff until the war was over, while some of the lucky ones had government contracts to manufacture things related to the war.
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Post by m3040c »

Hello Again Tom,

A small correction on your sales availability of the Senator 2/0. That reel was not available during WWII. It was introduced in the Penn #11 catalog which is the 1946 catalog. The Penn Senator 1/0, 2/0 and 3/0, the Longbeach 66, 67 and 68 and the Penn 109 were the new, after the war reels for Penn.
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"German Silver"

Post by Tom O. »

Thanks Mike for that update. I looked up "German Silver" in Wikepedia, and verified what you said - no silver. So the material I have is an alloy of nickel and copper, like I suspected in the first place. So I think I will rechrome them like I was going to do in the first place. These are parts that would have been thrown away if I didn't take this trouble to re-chrome them. And most of them are for reels of little collection value. In fact, most of these reels when I sell them, will actually be used for fishing, so I have to make sure the chrome is thick enough to protect against the elements. I am tempted to try selling one with just polished "German Silver" parts just to see if people will bid on it.

Also, thanks for the info on when the 1/0 and 2/0 were available. I think they were available earlier but known were called something else. I haven't been able to verify it, but I think, the two models marked as Long Beach Deluxe later were renamed the 1/0 & 2/0. But this is just based my observation of pictures in catalogs. Anyway you are right, the reels marketed as the 1/0 & 2/0 were not available until after the war.

I have one 2/0 that is unique in that it has external access to drag washers, and used the the drag cover plate and felt washer, as seen in some older larger Senators. It is the only 2/0 I have seen like this, and I think the first 1/0s were like this too, but I have never seen one.
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Post by m3040c »

Hello Tom,

Do you do the chroming yourself? I have many Penn reels to sell and some need new chrome. I have never done that. I guess if the reel is going to be used to fish with and the customer knows he is buying a reel with new chrome plating, it is alright. Most of what I sell and collect is not for fishing. It is for the collectors shelf. The reel is what it is. I will put correct new old stock parts on but not rechromed parts.

Have you found Squidder's made from German Silver? I thought they were all brass. A Black side plate, polished German Silver Squidder would be unique and I bet it would attract a lot of buyers. Squidder's are a reel that are always being hot rodded, so a German Silver one would be fun. You have my bid, give me your EBay seller name, please, or email me some pictures. I have four hot rodded Squidder's and would love to add a fifth.

Check out the handle on the third reel down. That Squidder is a Newellized 140 but it is the handle that I find interesting. I have never seen another Penn reel with that handle and the handle is a Penn.

Image

You hit the nail right on the head. Very good. The Long Beach Delux was introduced in 1937 and ran as a regular production model until 1945. The Delux had three different line capacities (250, 300 and 400). In 1946 the Delux was no longer offered and the Penn 1/0 (250 yard reel), 2/0 (300 yard reel) and 3/0 (400 yard reel) was introduced. They were directly related. and had a very similar appearance. I have a number of vintage 2/0's, now that you have mentioned the external drag differences I will look into that. I did not realize there was a difference. Thank You.

I am also going to check the Light House boxes that Brian mentioned and see if they mention the early reels being made of German Silver.

This is a great post.
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Squidders, etc.

Post by Tom O. »

Mike,
I do have one German Silver squidder. I might have others that I have not taken apart yet. I have a box full of corroded squidders waiting for me to get to.
I cannot recommend rechroming, unless you have lots of time to kill. Also, it is a bit of an expense. The problem is you need to get the metal to a high shine before chroming. This means a professional buffer. I already had a buffer. I discovered that some parts are easier to buff than others. The easiest ones are the ones that have flat areas like rings, plus with rings you don't have to worry about the back side. The most difficult parts are stands. They have creases that are amost impossible to get to with power equipment.
I have only worked on a couple of spools so far and I have only found one spool in German Silver. It is a 2/0 and it has only the sides of the spool in silver while the spindle is brass. If I sell one of these reels in German Silver I guess I will chrome the spindle and polish the silvery sides. But I could just buff the brass and have it be a two tone spool. I would have to coat the brass with some kind of clear lacquer, to keep the brass from tarnishing. Obviously a reel for the shelf not the sea. What do you think about this?
It will be a little while before I am able to sell a reel in polished german silver, I will post here or contact you when I am ready. My Ebay ID is sting-ray_tackle. Right now I just have a few parts for sale, I have been so busy with this re-chroming experiment I have not had a chance to get anything ready for sale.
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Post by Tom O. »

Mike, I forgot to say that I have never seen a Penn handle like that.

Here is a picture that I took of some parts I am working on. There is a regulare brass ring on the left and a german silver ring on the right. The spool is the one I mentioned that is german silver except for the brass spindle. I hope this works - my first attempt at inserting a picture here.

Image
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Post by m3040c »

Interesting, when you post here, what you have to do is copy the picture file between::::
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Post by m3040c »

The spool looks fine just the way it is. You do not have to clear coat the spindle or any part of the spool. If the reel is not fished it will eventually come to a nice clean patina. If it is fished then the clear coat will break down in the sun and salt water and the spool will be worse off than when you started.

The rings surprised me. You say the one on the right is German Silver. It almost looks like chrome. Correct me if I am wrong but what you saying is that neither of those rings have any plating left on them. If that is the case, then they look really good. I just do not know if all that work is justified for a Penn reel. If your polishing skills are that good and you perfect the polishing of the difficult parts I would think you should move into a higher end vintage reel. If you have to put a week's work into a reel, it should sell for a week's pay. That's hard to do with a Penn Squidder.

Now, if you are doing this as a labor of love, that's different but if you are doing this to make money, I just do not think all the work will return enough money to justify it. Of course, that is just my opinion.
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Post by Tom O. »

Yes, all of the plating is removed and the parts have been brought to a high polish. You would see the difference between the German Silver and chrome if I had included a new ring in the picture. Chrome actually has a slightly bluish tint. In fact the plating that I will be doing on some parts will be actually nickel plating. Real chrome plating is just too difficult for the small time operator. The place I get my supplies from, Casswell Plating, has a type of nickel plating they call "copy chrome," and it contains some cobalt along with the nickel that gives it a slight bluish look and looks just like chrome.
You are right about it not being worth my time doing this. But this was an experiment, and I may never do it again. It is a labor of love though. One thing, if I choose to do it again, I have this experience behind me and I will be more effecient next time.
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Post by m3040c »

Well Tom, even if you decide that the plating is not worth the the time, you can always use the polishing skills. There are many vintage reels that were not plated and a good polishing can turn a boring old reel into a jem.
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Post by Araye50 »

Not to nit pick, but you're not completely "familiar"! Those WWII pennies were made of steel. The only zinc used in them was limited to a thin galvanized coating. Oddly enough pennies made during the last ~25 years are primarily zinc, covered in a thick copper alloy jacket.
Tom O. wrote: I mentioned the WWII brass shortage, is I am familiar with the history of U.S. coinage. So the U.S. mint changed the alloy for "nickels" to nickel and silver. Also pennies were made of zinc.
Others have mentioned Penn using brass for their spools. Many of the classic Senators boasted 'one piece' cast bronze spools that were greatly superior to the assembled brass types.

German Silver has already been debunked as to silver content.
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Pennies & German Silver

Post by Tom O. »

Araye50,
You are correct about the Pennies, they are zinc coated steel. It has been a long time since I collected coins, and sometimes memory doesn't serve.
I have recently been looking over some old Penn catalogs and noticed that in the description of the reels from some catalogs from the 30's, the metal content is refered to as "german silver." But catalogs printed during the war and shortly afterward refered to the alloy as "nickel silver." Probably because Penn didn't want it to sound like their products had anything to do with Germany, who we were at war with.
I read on Wikipedia, that probably the best term for the alloy would be "nickel brass," since it is essentially brass that has nickel mixed with the copper, instead of regular brass which is copper and zinc.
But I would think manufacturers who use the alloy would much rather use the term "German Silver" so that people might think it contains silver, rather than a term like "nickel brass" where people might think of it as a cheaper metal than it is.
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Post by m3040c »

Tom O,

Very interesting concept. I did a little research. In 1935, 36, 37 and 38 Penn named the base materials of the Oceanside and Coronado as German Silver.
In 1939 Penn introduced the Squidder and named the base material of that reel Nickel Silver. of course we know that both are the same material but the name change may have related to the war, which was heating up then.

Just a short piece of info for you. By research done by myself and another collector, we have determined that the No. 9 Penn catalog is a 1941 and the No. 10 Penn catalog is a 1945. From 1942 to 1944, there were no reels produced or catalogs published.
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Post by Araye50 »

When will somebody please publish reproductions of all the old Penn catalogs?

Penn Catalog No. 8 does not mention what the Squidder No. 140 frame is made of when describing it's "New Ball Bearing Squidding Reel" on page 2-the 1st reel in this catalog. I consider this is a 1940 catalog, Otto wished fishermen well "for 1940" & an "890 lb, Sept. 24, 1939" Buefin tuna record is listed. Page 3 has Silver Beach No. 97 & 98 & Coronado No. 92, 90 & 95 described as "Frame (made) of German-silver and chrome-plated." The next 2 pages have the Surfmaster No. 150, 200 & 250 & Long Beach No. 259 described as: "Frame is made of nickel-silver and chromium-plated." The Senators on Pages 12 & 13 are also described as chromium-plated German-silver. Penn had already used both terms well before the US entered the war & did not exactly change, but used both concurrently. The use of both "chrome" & "chromium" leads me to think the ad men were very name conscious & likely also capitalizing on the inclusion of the word "silver".

Note the 3/0 Senator also waited until after the war & the Long Beach Delux is also described as German-silver in No. 8. You can recognize German-silver trim rings by the tight square corner on a reel's edge. The common rounded brass trim rings have a slightly radiused edge, lacking the desirable early sharp edges.
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Post by m3040c »

hello Araye50,

Publish all the Penn catalogs. That is certainly a tall order. It has taken me years of time, research and money to put them together. I have all the early books from 1935 (which would qualify as Catalog 3) to catalog 30 (1967). I am willing to share any information with anyone but as for publishing. Well... Hopefully in the future, time will allow me to publish something ( I think a big fat coffee table book on Penn history would be great). There are other people with the same idea of publishing a Penn book but they are not doing it yet, or if they are I do not know about it and they will beat me to the punch. Such is life. Hopefully I will be retiring in a couple of years and then I should have more time. Until that time we will have to depend on the history pages of the Penn website and catalogs.

Every time I think I have enough info a new twist happens. Just this week a fellow reel historian--collector--scrounger from Texas sent me a Lawrence catalog from 1957. We suspect a Penn engineer escaped from Philidelphia and traveled to New York to begin the Lawrence Reel Company or some of the Penn rebels that created Atlantic Reels may have not returned to Penn. Most Lawrence Reels are a dead ringer for a Penn reel except for the checkerboard design on the side plate.

By the way, The Squidder is first introduced in the #7 catalog and it is there that Penn states the frame of the reel material is Nickel Silver. You are correct about the catalog date for a #8 book, it is a 1940. I also agree with you about why business men called German or Nickel Silver what they did. The word silver created a misconception of value to the benefit of the seller. To this day people believe there was silver in them thar German Silver Hills.

And, yes Don, I will be making more donations to the ORCA library in the future. There are just not enough hours in my day and my wife sometimes wants some of my time. :roll:
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Catalog No. 8

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Mike or whoever,
I recently purchased copies of several early catalogs from Don of the ORCA library.
They are pretty decent, except for No. 8. This is probably due to poor condition of original. I scanned all of these catalogs and have been busy cleaning them up electronicaly. The worst page on No. 8 was the front cover, which was just a big black blob. I just completed my clean-up of it, but I was wondering if I erased something I shouldn't have. I know that the original had "Penn Reels" in a large script logo. Under that there was "Catlog No. 8" with two photographs on each side of record size fish. Then in the middle towards the bottom was "For Saltwater Sport Fishing" written over a sea scene.
I have had to remove the two photos of fish, and the sea scene background because they were just a blurry mess. But what I was wondering, is there anything else on that cover such a Philadelphia, PA?
Any help would be appreciated.
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Post by m3040c »

Hello TomO,

How's this::::::::::::

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Tom O.
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Thanks

Post by Tom O. »

Thanks Mike. I just sent you an email. My small investement in ORCA is proving to be quite useful.
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Post by m3040c »

You are welcome Tom, ORCA is useful and also fun. You can not get this info anywhere else.
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