Question For All You Machinists Out There...................

[el Lawrence]

RE: A few posts back on this thread... of how many of a reel were ACTUALLY made by the "head honcho" of the reel making company.

If they were an actual manufacturing company I imagine only one or two reels of a model at best...

At the company I recently left (fine jewelry making) the founder (who's name and the company name are the same) would only make one or two prototypes of anything then these were turned over to model makers and R&D folks to make dies, molds, etc. to produce more that were identical or in some cases better due to small refinements. Although much of what the company makes has a high degree of actual hand work involved (rare in this trade today from a high volume maker) the work cannot be called "hand made" (due to laws from a national stamping act, etc.)...

BUT despite all that and that the company often talks about the "Design Team" in its advertising... Many MANY of the customers still think 1) All the designs are done by the owner 2) All the product is hand made...
3) That he still sits out under an oak tree making each item one at the time...

I don't pretend to know all about the historical side of manufacturing but if you consider the products made... My guess is from the mid to late 1800s any fairly large manufacturing company of widely used items were working in a similar way just in order to produce the numbers. Teams of craftsmen using the most sophisticated mass production tools of the day doing piece work production that was assembled by still more workers or craftsmen to match the original made by the designer.

But that is just my educated guess...

As to the sale-ability of a poorly made copy (which someone touched on earlier) there are large numbers of new and up-and-coming collectors or just folks that have heard that "old fishing tackle is worth something" that can't tell if all the parts on a reel are right but are still interested in a reel that seems to be a good buy or something collectible...

While I was at the recent Austin NFLCC show back in the start of the month one of the fake MOSCROPS "day and night" fisherman brass fly reels came into the auction off the street (you see them pop up on ebay too)... this was my first chance to handle one of the fakes which I was interested in seeing up close as I have one of the real reels... I was amazed at how poorly the fake was made, how badly it worked, how clunky it was in comparison to my reel. The quality of the art of the fisherman on the side was like the Pillsbury dough boy compared to Michelangelo's "David" in detail and execution... EASY to spot for the educated but due to the novelty of the reel ("Oh isn't this neat?") the fakes still sell! Most everyone at the auction DID seem to be aware that it was a fake, but it auctioned and sold anyway (though I think bidding was very light)... You would think to real reel collectors the item would be viewed as akin to so much Pier One brass bric-a-brac (no offense to anyone that works with Pier One intended...).

Ok I will get back to my drawing board now...

[Steve]

Maybe the problem is that this thread began on the Ebay board, then moved here to the Reel Talk board. Too many boards, too many messages, too cute.

Originally, the question was posed as to whether or not an "EVH Maker" stamp on a not-EVH-looking reel listed on eBay was genuine. Various opinions were posted, including some messages suggesting the mark was fraudulent.

I felt the mark was genuine, i.e., not stamped by the seller, because I'd seen other non-EVH-looking reels with the same stamp. It took some time to find the examples in the old Oliver catalogs, so I chimed in when I found them. Subsequently, Real Manley began the following dialogue:

Manley: "i would bet my eye teeth that reel is a vom hofe"

Steve: "the mark, though genuine, does not mean that the reels were necessarily EVH-made"

Manley: "I wonder how many reels that were stamped Vom Hofe were actually made by Von Hofe? I mean by his own two hands...I would imagine 99.9% or more of my Vom Hofe's are not the real deal"

Steve: "I'd imagine 99.9% or more of Real Manley's reels that were stamped Vom Hofe were actually made by the Vom Hofe company. How many the EVH actually made is anyone's guess."

I'm still not sure what RM means by "a vom hofe." He apparently defines it to mean that a Vom Hofe must have been touched by EVH's own hands to be considered "genuine." Whether or not he does define it this way is irrelevant to the subsequent "conversation," which can be summarized:

1. The "EVH maker" mark is genuine in that it was not added after the reel left the factory. This conclusion is based on finding the same mark on other reels from various sources.
2. Obviously, those other reels bearing the genuine mark do not resemble any reels that the EVH company is known to have produced. Instead, they resemble reels made by Montague or Ocean City or Schoenfeld-Gutter, based on some of the posted messages.
3. A reel does not have to have been handled by Edward C. Vom Hofe personally to be considered "genuine."
4. It's probable that the EVH company was selling reels made by some other company but which bore their own, genuine "EVH Maker" stampings.

Whether or not such reels may be considered as genuine EVH reels is a moot point. I hope that we can now consider that point mutely.

[el Lawrence]

Guess I shoulda gone back further before participating in the conversation, huh?

And I wasn't too clear with the second part of my post that was a bit in response to Joe's first question (at the start of this section of what I thought was an informal chat) on was it worth it to fake something for the sake of $200. (not verbatum but at least one facet of the conversation/queston he posed).
My example was to illustrate that along the "food chain" it must be worth it to someone to make fakes (with no conclusion on my part about the EVH in question) considering how many of the VERY poorly made "Day & Night" Fisherman reels seem to be out there, how easy it is to tell them from a real one (not nearly as difficult as the study on screws, or reel feet, etc. that some folks are expert at, but in general the basic or novice collector has little knowledge of), and how WELL they still sell (even when folks know they are fakes).
Whoever made them to start with has most likely more than recouped their investment on bad molds, casting, and stamping making a hefty profit to boot even if they sold them as a copy. You can still see them selling for more than $100. every now and then on ebay, not to mention how many must change hands at flea markets and garage sales to who knows what kind of profit. Far more than one reel was knocked off here... and it's my guess even more than dozens. I imagine the first unethical seller/maker has made a profit and moved on to the next project...

Yes there most likely isn't a profit in .29 cent fake screws (?)... but it all depends. I have spent more than $50. on a reel just to get the end cap off of it.

However next time I suppose I shouldn't be as chatty, will keep my aparently uninteresting opinions to myself... And pay more notice to the start of a thread rather than following chat where it might lead...

[Don Champion]

Hey guys! I think you got a little off the subject. Notice the word Free at the top does not have a "mushroom" on the sides of the stamping. The other mark does. Shows it was put on after the reel was manufactured. When is a good question, but I wouldn't touch this one. You won't find this "mushroom" effect on a manufacturers reel.
As for how hard or expensive it is for a machiniest to make such a stamp? A few lunch periods on the computer program, one "qualified tool", a "blank" piece of material and a couple of hours on the machine. If oil hardening tool steel was used, he could harden it at home. Worth it for $200.00? Yes!
After working 40 years in a machine shop enviroment 99% of the people would tell you where to shove it if you asked them to make something to defraud someone else. Restoring it to original condition is a different story.
Don Champion

[Steve]

The two stampings would have been done at two different times, probably on two different machines, possibly at two different shops. It's even possible that these EVH-marked reels, which seem pretty scarce, were assembled by the EVH company with parts supplied by Montague or whomever. The EVH mark could have been applied at EVH to plates previously marked "Free" by the original mfr.

It's a little dangerous to draw too many conclusions from low-resolution digital photos. Below are 4 versions of the same mark viewed after various sharpness filters were applied with Photoshop. The original shot is in the upper left. Under a couple of conditions, white fringes begin to appear around letters.


Here is the mark from the reel listed on eBay, filtered similarly. The white fringes, though they may truly represent edges of a heavy stamping, vary in appearance.


The point is that fringes around marks like these can be artifactual. The appearance depends on the quality of the camera lens, the actual focal point of the lens, the sharpness settings used on the camera, the resolution of the original shot, etc., etc. The strongest evidence that the Maker mark is a genuine EVH mark is that it's been seen on other reels from other sources. It doesn't really matter if the mark was applied by the manufacturer of the parts or by the assembler of the parts or even by the retailer. There's no good reason to think it was applied after the retail sale.

[Harvey]

So, 'Barney", Do you consider this case closed? Can we go down to the Diner now and have a "Patty Melt"? Better take your bullet 'cause we might have to solve another case!
"H"


PS: Great work Steve. We knew we could depend on you and your detective skills.

[Ron Mc]

maybe my reading glasses don't work, but I see the common features in each set of 4, and the differences between the two sets are striking. Not saying you're wrong, but the wear on the first set and the metal flash on the second are apparent.

[john elder]

well, maybe HTTNA will offer us a thorough diagnosis when the reel gets home...as usual, they were there to step up to the plate and take the last cut!

[reelsmith.]

I agree with Steve:

The strongest evidence that the Maker mark is a genuine EVH mark is that it's been seen on other reels from other sources. It doesn't really matter if the mark was applied by the manufacturer of the parts or by the assembler of the parts or even by the retailer. There's no good reason to think it was applied after the retail sale.

I could not have said it better.

Dean.

[Real Manley]

I was going to just let this pass, but I would like to attempt to further muddy up my original comment. The point that I so poorly attempted to make was that the mark was a Vom Hofe mark. When someone puts their mark on something it denotes sometype of affiliation. All that matters is that the use of mark was approved. It doesn't matter if it was done at Montague, in someone's garage, or even by the maker (Vom Hofe) personnally. My comment was and still is that the mark was legitimate. Forget all the other BS.

[joe klaus]

Steve:

This thread did not start on the ebay board. There are 2 entirely distinct questions/threads. This particular thread, as originated by me, had NOTHING to do with whether the reel in question was legit or not.

And unfortunately, I didn't get many responses from machinists

[reelsmith.]

Hey Joe.

With regard to a machinists ability to recreate a vintage reel, I firmly believe it can be done. I've seen enough replacement feet, handles, sideplates., etc, that I did not know were replacements until told that I am convinced entire reels can be made.

Why not? There are no secrets of the trade that the old time reel makers used that were lost in time. Whatever they made can be made again. It's just a matter of someone with the talent putting the needed effort into it... and when they do, let's hope they stamp "REPRO" into the headplate.



Dean.

[Steve]

Joe,
Sorry, but your message sure sounded like a spinoff from the message on the other board:

"I posted a question on the Ebay section of this site about a reel which is currently on eBay that has some characteristics of an Ocean City but is stamped on the front side plate "edward vom hofe maker".
Here is link to auction:
broken ... eName=WDVW
My question to the machinists is this:
Assuming that the edward vom hofe inscription on the front of this reel is "fake" (and I'm not necessarily saying that it is); and further assuming that the vom hofe stamp increases the value of the reel by $200.00; and assuming that logically this can only "work" one time if it's a sham;"