What Was the 1st Reel to Use Precision Ball Bearings?

[Teal]

Hi Richard,

Well I think this is more than one article. I am sure Steve V. could write a terrific article on ball bearings and fishing reels. I have finished a draft of an article on precision ball bearings, including background info on who invented and patented the precision bearing process, what it was used in, and what reel first utilized PRECISION bearings (not ball bearings as Steve has noted a number of times have been around since Abraham), as well as how modern makers utilize precision bearings in their reels. Plus I will try and goad Bob into writing an article on Pflueger ball bearing reels.

Cheers,

Dr. Todd

[Ron Mc]

Hi Doc,
I got my verification from Elwyn Atwood in the UK that the Exchequer with the precision bearing is c. 1937. Maybe not. Young wholesale catalog lists the sliding agate available then, but no word on the bearing.
Rupe came through later this afternoon with this page from Phi Waller's book. I'm going to try to contact Mr. Waller to verify the date.

[cadams]

I really enjoy this discussion.

I'd like to clarify something Richieoh said - most current reel manufacturers are using Abec 3 bearings. Reel fanatics, or better yet reel cranks often install Abec 5 or 7 bearings. I haven't heard of Abec 9 bearings. Are the Abec 5 and 7 bearings worth the money? For most people, probably not. Many of the best (and longest) distance casters in the world are still happy with well lubed Abec 3 and 5 bearings. Now some are using Ceramic/hybrids in Abec 5. Many have found that Abec 7's are TOO fine in their tolerances. Do casters need precision ball bearings? Some longs distance casters are getting their reels to spin from o to 35.000 RPM in a fraction of a second.

About the first Ambassaduer bearings, they used bearings that were radiussed on the outer cage so as to allow the flexing of the spool shaft. this was later dropped as being unneeded.

All in all, reels are such a small market for bearing manufacturers that reels just get what it out there. From what I understand the RC market as referred to in another post is the Radio Control market.

Just a clarification, on the reels older than WWII era are the bearings in a removable assembly, or are they made with ability remove the balls from the races?

Thanks

Charles

[Ron Mc]

Just a clarification, on the reels older than WWII era are the bearings in a removable assembly, or are they made with ability remove the balls from the races?

Thanks

Charles

I think that's what Todd is putting together for us in his article.

here is a c. 1920 handmade ball bearing, which is a removeable assembly, the brass cage holds the balls. You can see the strike marks beside each ball where the cage was staked to hold the balls.

this same style bearing is shown in a drawing for a Farlow reel, from a 1913 publication - upper bearing in drawing. Note that the lower bearing in the drawing has the type of inner and outer races that we expect to see in a modern precision ball bearing.


this is a later reel from the same maker as the upper photo (Dingley) and also typical of the bearings made by Hardy and Young. The balls are contained in the race, but the bearing assembly is not removeable.

[Guest]

Ron Mc wrote:

(I'm sure we're talking about Hoffmann stock numbers, rather than Ogden Smith part number.)

As I said, I've seen 2 of these reels, and heard of a third.
The Exchequer is the same casting as the reel below, but finished out with the bearing and centrebrake. This is how Ogden Smith specified the reel from Young.

Yes I was talking about Hoffman marking and numbers. Seems to suggest a later manufactured bearing.
Do the other 2 reels have Hoffman bearings? Or is it possible that the bearing in yours was replaced when the reel was refinished?

[Ron Mc]

the reel is original, and shows no sign of use. I was told it came from the collection of Jamie Maxtone Graham (by someone I trust).
I'm working to contact the author that reproduced the OS catalog listing to verify the date of the catalog.
Is there some reason to believe that Hoffmann was not making precision ball bearings by WWII?

[Ron Mc]

here's what a quick search turned up:

eBay.ie - Advertising, Automobilia, Automotive, British items at low...
1910 HOFFMANN BALL BEARINGS ORIGINAL VINTAGE ADVERT EUR 5.88

eBay - Parts Catalogues, Parts Catalogues items at low prices
1938 HOFFMANN BALL & ROLLER BEARING CATALOGUE - TIMKEN

eBay.co.uk - Manufacturers, Aeronautica, Transportation,...
1939 FAFNIR BALL BEARINGS AD-CONSOLIDATE ... 1938 NORMA- HOFFMANN BEARINGS AD-BOEING CLIPPER 314 - US $4.00 US $2.25 2d 18h 27m

unfortunately these are defunct listings, but it would appear that Hoffmann was advertising precision ball bearings in 1910, as well as in 1939, which is the estimated date of my reel.
would an off-the-shelf aircraft ball bearing be marked by the maker? I think so.

also:
RHP was formed in 1970 with the merging of three leading British ball and roller bearing companies: Ransome & Marles Co. Ltd., Hoffmann Manufacturing Co. Ltd. and Pollard Ball Bearing Co. Ltd. They them became part of the world-wide NSK Group and more recently became part of the SKF Group following their acquisition of the NSK Group.

so we won't have a marked Hoffmann bearing later than 1970. ?
I may be on one wrong Hoffmann here, Norma-Hoffmann vs Hoffmann UK

[Guest]

Sorry. I thought the flyman had stated that the reel was in near mint "restored" condition when he brought it up on the bamboo board.
I also believed that it was odd for a reelmaker to use bearings with parts marked as such by an outside vendor. I had figured those stock numbers to be of 60's or 70's vintage.
My bad.

[Ron Mc]

NOT a problem, friend - discussion is great. I don't mind doing my homework.
Always better than being wrong in print.

[Ron Mc]

WOO HOO !

Phil Waller came through, and while he couldn't give a specific date for the catalog, he said it was fair to date the OS Exchequer with the Hoffman precision ball bearing as "Mid-1930s".

So knowing that the sliding agate was not available before 1937 (E. Atwood from Young wholesale catalog), the OS Exchequer catalog listing (and reel) is c. 1937-9.

[Ron Mc]

this is interesting
broken ... 3878768182
a norma-hoffmann bearing, with separate upper and lower races, and a ball/cage assembly that looks just like the bearing on the Dingley photo and Farlow's drawing (above).

[Lillawill]

Hi Guys


The " ZZ " on bearings indicates Double Metal Shields. This is usually found on bearings that need to be heated to be installed so if they are in good condition they may be hard to remove.


Bill Turnbull

[Paul M]

It's a couple of years too late for this discussion but I found this interesting reference to ball bearings (second image, bottom left) in an undated Kiest reel booklet. I believe this is from one of the older models, based on the tin it came in... sometime in the 1920's? The reel turns smooth as silk.

[Paul M]

Keist had a 1921 patent that claimed use of ball bearings:

[Baithound]

I thought the Kopp reel was showing the spring in the patent, I don't think they are bearing balls.

Baithound

[Steve]

In another thread, Dr. Todd expressed an intense desire to revisit a topic we discussed years ago. Since that thread ended in 2011 with a mere 65 posts, it seems like a good time to accede to Dr. Todd's wishes. So here we are again.

For the record, here are some drawings of ball bearings from around 1495, level of precision undetermined. You'll probably recognize the handwriting. And regarding the bearings in the lower illustration: "Julius vom Hofe, eat your heart out!"

[Len Sawisch]

Too Cool!

[bvandeuson]

In another thread, Dr. Todd expressed an intense desire to revisit a topic we discussed years ago. Since that thread ended in 2011 with a mere 65 posts, it seems like a good time to accede to Dr. Todd's wishes. So here we are again.

For the record, here are some drawings of ball bearings from around 1495, level of precision undetermined. You'll probably recognize the handwriting. And regarding the bearings in the lower illustration: "Julius vom Hofe, eat your heart out!"

That bottom illustration with the cone-shaped pivot centered in 3 bearings is the same as was used in many thousands of basic telegraph keys from the 1800's through to today.

Bruce