Winchester & Thomas E Wilson

Dale Noll · Post by **Dale Noll** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:44 am

Need help to identify mfg of Thomas E. Wilson reels. One of 6 reels has foot identical to a Winchester 2242 with an undelined 60. Reel is 2-1/4 dia with same exact foot. Same crank nob, counterweight, and rim deisgn. Reel is marked on Headplate under the Thomas E. Wilson & Co. logo with "H645" , and the foot has an underlined 60.

Now,with an underlined 60, an H645, it seems this reel was made by the same Co. that made the Winchester 2242. Can someone clarify this?

I have another 2" dia T.E. reel, but with a two pillar foot, also having an underlined 60. This reel is marked with H638. Same rim and Headplate design as the H645, handle counter weight is the same, but nob is like Montague. One other reel definetly has a Montague foot with the same exact head plate design as the Winchester.

I can find no reports in the Library on Thomas E. Wilson, but I expect it was a Hardware Co. Must have been in Chicago as several other T.E.'s have Chicago USA. These reels do not have underlined yardage marks. Finally, one last reel is marked "Powell" under the T.E. logo. ?

Thanks for any help. Dale Noll

Ed Clark · Post by **Ed Clark** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:32 am

I suppose several companies may have made reels for Wilson. I have a reel in the box that was made by Union Hardware for Wilson it is all nickel silver H500.

Ed

Reel Geezer · Post by **Reel Geezer** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:41 am

The Winchester 2242 was made by Winchester Repeating Arms Co. of New Haven, CT. They probably also made your Thomas E. Wilson reel, as they manufactured "generic" reels for several large retail/wholesale companies.

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:03 pm

Hi,

Thomas E. Wilson is the namesake of Wilson Sporting Goods, famous for volleyballs (anyone see Tom Hanks in Castaway?), golf clubs, etc. Golf historians have written on the golf line so there is some information about the company out there. The short of it is that Thomas E. Wilson was named president of Chicago's Ashland Mftg. Co., an early sporting goods house. It is renamed Thomas E. Wilson in 1916, and they become one of the biggest athletic clothing, baseball, football, and golf suppliers in the country by the mid-1920s. Early in the company history they sold fishing tackle branded Thomas E. Wilson (presumably they worked with many suppliers, as I have seen Weber and Frost products marked Thos. E. Wilson). I doubt they sold tackle beyond 1930, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, the short of it is that Wilson is one of the most collectable of the golf makers, and I imagine marked Wilson tackle is much, much rarer.

I guess what I am saying is that it is highly likely that Winchester made this reel for Wilson, as the time frame is nearly perfect, and Winchester made tackle for Simmons, Shapleigh, Frankfurth, Tryon, Pritzlaff, Marshall-Wells, Kelly-How-Thompson, and about 30 or more companies during this exact time frame.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Dr. Todd E.A. Larson

Don Champion · Post by **Don Champion** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:45 pm

Montague did make the Thomas E. Wilson Powell, or at least one of them. Don't know about the others. There may have been more than one mfg. for the Powell. Horrocks-Ibbotson probably had a hand in making some of these also.
Don Champion

orourke · Post by **orourke** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:58 pm

Bronson Reel Company also manufactured for Thomas E Wilson. The one that comes to mind is the Bronson Modern No. 100. It will say Thomas E Wilson on the Head or Tail plate and then have the Bronson reel mark in the fold above the foot.

Dale Noll · Post by **Dale Noll** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 11:31 pm

Thanks for all your information sharing. Didn't expect the Thomas E. Wilson connection with Wilson Sporting Goods. Makes sense that their reels were made by other fabricators, like many others at that time. In conclusion, the T.E.W. reels were made by at least Winchester and Montague.

One final issue. The T.E.W. previously noted as Montague with the Winchester Headplate design. This reel compares exactly with a Defiance and a St. Clair which I expect were made by Montague. Odd that none of my other Montague reels have this headplate design! Wonder if Winchester made reels for Montague!

Enough is enough. Thanks again all. Dale Noll

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:17 pm

Hi,

Ed Clark's excellent Union Hardware Co. Wilson reel reminded me that I needed to query the learned peanut gallery for pictures/information of Thomas E. Wilson reels. I have written a lengthy history of Thomas E. Wilson & Co.'s fishing tackle venture which I will submit to the Reel News when I am done. Ed has already graciously noted he would donate a pic of the Union Hardware/Wilson. I have three Wilsons but definitely want pics of other models to fill in the expansive gaps.

I guess in my own overly verbose way I am asking for anyone with any information on Thomas E. Wilson (catalogs, ads, brochures, info, pictures, model #s, makers, etc.) to email me. I would greatly appreciate it! I know there is at least one catalog floating around as I got sniped on it a few months back. %&#[at]!

Cheers,

Dr. Todd E.A. Larson

drexelantiques · Post by **drexelantiques** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 6:32 pm

I thought Defiance was a Winchester Jobber mark, meaning it was made by Winchester? At least I have seen the Defiance mark identified as such in one of the Winchester books.

Ed Clark · Post by **Ed Clark** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 6:45 pm

Jeff - not sure but I have a Defiance Quadruple and am pretty sure by it's looks that it was made by Union Hardware. Any ideas from anyone else?

Ed

Reel Geezer · Post by **Reel Geezer** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:45 pm

Defiance was not a Winchester jobber trademark. I have an original letter to the jobbers that Winchester mailed out when starting the program for sporting goods dealers and jobbers that were not Winchester Stores, and Defiance was not one of the names used. The original names used in 1923 when they started the program were only Hendryx and Armax. We know they also used Barney & Berry and Crusader on tackle they sold directly.

However, I do own an original Winchester blueprint showing the Defiance stamp that they used on reel seats on steel rods produced for Horrocks-Ibbotson. I would conclude the Defiance trademark was owned by Horrocks-Ibbotson (at least in the 1920s), and probably used on many other fishing products by H-I.

These items are all shown in my Winchester book, and were covered again in the section I wrote for Krause's publication "The Standard Catalog of Winchester".

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 8:47 pm

Hi Guys,

Defiance was also a tradename for A.G. Shapleigh, used on both reels and guns. I had a part on Defiance marked tackle (with a nod to Phil's discovery in his Winchester book) in the article on wholesale hardware company trade tackle in the recent NFLCC Magazine (Vol. 15 No. 1, June 2005) but it got cut out for space limitations.

It is clear that Winchester stamped tackle with the Defiance name for H&I during the Winchester/Simmons merger; I will email my friend Chris Labuz who is the world expert on H&I and see if he can find the reference in his catalog collection.

I would surmise that any non-Winchester Defiance reels were sold by Shapleigh, which was known to traffic in this tradename for three decades or more. As for the H&I connection that is certainly bizarre, maybe their was no copyright and Winchester/Simmons was making a concerted effort to undermine the Shapleigh (their biggest rival) market share by "watering" down their trade name? From my research on wholesale jobbers it was pretty much the wild west out there and jobbers were strictly cutthroat. All speculation, mind you, until some hard evidence arises.

I will report what I find.

Todd

Ed Clark · Post by **Ed Clark** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:49 am

Here are my thoughts. I believe this Defiance reel is definitely a Union Hardware product. In the next 4 pictures the Defiance reel is on the left and the Union Hardware Sunnybrook casting reel is on the right. They have the same foot and characteristics of most Union Hardware reels. I understand the trademark thing - but you decide on these reels.

Ed

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:14 am

Ok folks,

Here is the message I got from Chris Labuz, should definitely clear things up circa Defiance:

"H&I used the Defiance trade name as early as 1912 on lines and looking at my 1913 it states Exclusive owners of Defiance, Mohawk ..., Trademarks. I have seen it on rods also. I also just realized they started naming rods in the april 1925 catalog. they had a defiance fly rod,steel rods... "locking band reel seat" a picture cut also highlights the reel
seat..."

So Defiance was clearly an H&I tradename, which they wholesaled out to Shapleigh, which also paid them for the use of then name on non-fishing items like shotguns. Phil was exactly right--it was an H&I tradename and the paper he has shows that the reel seats made for H&I beginning in 1925 were manufactured by Winchester.

Cheers,

Todd

Ed Clark · Post by **Ed Clark** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:43 am

Does that mean that Union Hardware could have made this reel for H-I? Looks that way to me.

Ed

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:08 pm

Ed,

Yes, it is definitely a Union Hardware made reel, made for H&I using their tradename. It is POSSIBLE Horrocks wholesaled to Shapleigh and then Shapleigh wholesaled it to the Hardware trade; that is possible but not likely. Most likely this was sold through the H&I catalog and wholesaled to sporting goods stores directly.

Definitely Union Hdwr. made though.

Todd

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:47 am

OK here's where it gets weird. I just looked through a 1920 Montague catalog and it contains a reel marked only "Defiance" on it. What the heck is that all about? Why would an H&I registered tradename be carried by Montague in their catalog? It is a 60-yard quadruple multiplying jeweled non-level wind casting reel.

So just to recap, I have now seen reels marked "Defiance" in Shapleigh, Montague, and H&I catalogs. Clearly some reels marked "Defiance" were made by Union and others by Montague and maybe even some by H&I.

I have not run across another trade name so widely distributed before. All very strange.

Any thoughts?

Todd

Steve · Post by **Steve** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 10:47 am

Apparently, there were not enough brand names to go around in the massive reel market. Even when folks were using names like "Defiance" under formal agreements, others were infringing on trademarks. For example, in 1888, T.J. Conroy had to get an injunction to force H.H. Kiffe to stop using his "Silver King Reel" brand. And look at the use of "Mohawk," which probably showed up as variably as "Defiance." Those were the days when product nomenclature wasn't a full-time specialty.

Dale Noll · Post by **Dale Noll** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:23 pm

Hi all,

I have 6 Defiance reels. Per the foot design, I assigned Montague as the mfg of 5 of them.

One other reel has the UH foot design with the Wooden handle and 30 degree aligned script tilt identical to that one posted by ED. Guess that one was mfg. by Union Hardware. I have thought it was a Bronson until reading this post.

Defiance is also the name of a little town in northwest Ohio where my parents lived. Wonder if there is/was any origination connection.

Dale.

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 2:47 pm

Steve,

Well I guess I shouldn't be surprised, Bob Miller and myself have been digging into Pflueger history and found at least five "other" Enterprise Manufacturing Companies contemporary to the Pflueger one. So I guess if there aren't enough company names to go around, there aren't enough trade names as well. Drives me bonkers as I'm trying my darndest to get this whole tackle trade thing straightened out...

Oh well.

Todd

Jim Schottenham · Post by **Jim Schottenham** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:43 pm

Here's a Wilson reel that I don't think was made by Winchester, Bronson or Montague. Thoughts?

Jim S

Dale Noll · Post by **Dale Noll** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:51 pm

Jim,
The jeweled caps look just like a SouthBend 1131A. Also, the flat screw heads are too similar. Now, if you measure the diameters of the rim pillars, the foot pillars, and the spool arbor to within .001" it may fit the SB sizes.

The measurements on one of my 1131As are as follows:
The 3 rim Pillars = 0.155". The spool arbor = .315". The 2 Foot pillars = .220". The inside width of the 1131A is 1.875" so if your reel is longer the Foot pillars will be some larger, and conversly if shorter, these will be somewhat smaller diameters.

Have a go. Let us know.

Dale.

Reel Geezer · Post by **Reel Geezer** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 8:21 am

You don't have to take all those measurements. As I'm sure Harvey can tell us, almost all those parts look like a Shakespeare reel. There is no question in my mind, but that Shakespeare made that reel. I believe there are several Wilson reels that were manufactured by Shakespeare.

Len Sawisch · Post by **Len Sawisch** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:14 pm

I agree w/ the Geezer Guy! It's a Shake to me, too. Those Fisheye end caps are 1914 ish to 1918 ish. Shakespeare put them on the SouthBend 1131's after they first appeared on a few Shakespeare reels. Last ones I recall seeing were on a Shakespeare Style B.

Jim Schottenham · Post by **Jim Schottenham** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:37 pm

I suspected as much, but since I didn't see Shakespeare listed in the above thread, I thought I'd throw this reel out there.
Thanks Phil and Len for confirming!
Jim S

Winchester & Thomas E Wilson

Winchester & Thomas E Wilson

Wilson

Bronson too!

Wilson Again

Defiance

Defiance

Teal

Weird

Hah!

Hmmm, how 'bout this one?

Yep!

Thanks.....