Need I.D , Mystery German Silver baitcaster ????

[KeysReels]

Hi, I recently picked up this very interesting baitcaster that I haven't been able to identify.
I have my own thoughts about which company made it but wanted to share and get the opinion of other collectors.

The reel is well made and has detailed knurling on the head plate rim, back plate rim and on the handle collar. There is a double handle located at the 12:00 position. There is a small Kentucky style click on the back. There is no yardage on the foot...the reel has the # 3 inscribed inside in various locations. The diameter of the reel is 2-3/16" , in one photo you can see the reel on the left next to a 2" diameter Montague g.s baitcaster on the right.

What is most interesting about this reel is there was originally a level wind mounted at the 12:00 position. It is missing but one can see the holes where it was located. There are also very small holes where I think the level wind protector plate was mounted.
The main gear inside is similar to the Shakespeare levelwind main gear as it has a smaller gear mounted in the middle.

I feel the level wind was done at the factory as the foot pillars on the head plate side are long and come up tight to the headplate ( meaning the plate was not turned upside down at a later date ) so the reel was factory designed to have the handle at 12:00. Also the main gear with the smaller gear is for a level wind.
I have never seen this style german silver reel with a level wind. I would like to know who made it so I can hunt for the correct levelwind.
I welcome input and thoughts on who made it. Hopefully someone will know.
See below photos of the reel complete and apart.
Thanks for looking.
Bill

[john elder]

What an interesting reel and as you say, of good quality. Your thoughts about the hole pattern and the dual gear relating to some sort of level wind seem correct, but I don't get how that mechanism would work at the 12 0'clock position. Perhaps it would fit with some after-market gizmo, but it would still seem to be at a mechanical disadvantage at that angle. Maybe one of our other members has a patent drawing that would shed light on a mechanism here.

The handle seems to be way out of proportion for the reel.

j

[KeysReels]

Hi John,

Thanks for your thoughts about the reel. It does seem strange that the levelwind is at 12:00 but perhaps the factory had modified it in some way. I am hoping someone will remember seeing an illustration in a catalog or better yet have this reel so the levelwind style will be revealed.
You mention the handle...well it is exactly the same size and style as the double handles on my german silver Montague reels. That may be a clue.

Thanks.

Bill

[sdlehr]

It would make no sense for the line to go up and over a pillar, so I'm wondering if this particular level-wind line guide lay inside the pillar instead of outside the pillar as we usually see, and the line guide is reversed with the worm gear on the top. If such is the case I wouldn't rely on finding a patent diagram for an explanation, it's very similar to the original application.

[Steve]

It may have been some experimental bail brake, rather than a level wind.

Meanwhile, here are some top-of-the-reel morsels for thought:

[wrong99]

Perhaps modified for "under-the-rod" use?
Mark

[KeysReels]

Hi Steve,
I was hoping this reel would catch your attention. I did give thought to it being something other then a levelwind....but why have an inner gear on the main gear? It seems to have been designed so what ever shaft was mounted would have a gear that meshed with this smaller gear so a worm drive shaft seems the most logical. The two smaller holes seem to be just the right size and place for the small tabs found on a levelwind protector plate. Notice that the back plate smaller holes do not go through the plate.
Boy, I was really hoping you had the answer on this one.....you usually do!

Thanks.
Bill

[KeysReels]

Hi Mark,

I also had the same thoughts about it being an undermount reel but in that position the sliding click would be forward on the backplate. I lean towards it being a top mounted reel with the larger space without pillars being oriented to the rear so one can thumb the spool.

This would still allow ample space for the levelwind if that is in fact what it had. The levelwind protector plate would also keep one's thumb from encountering the wormshaft.

Bill

[Alan Baracco]

Folks,

At the risk of wading into a swamp were I don't know the way out, that handle reminds me of the South Bend early Model 1200 handle, is it 2 1/2 inches knob to knob? And is the square hole 3/16 inches? The grips on my 1200 are different than those shown in Image 12, however.

Also, in Image 6, the right most small hole seems too far away from the LW to accomodate a LW guard, maybe an anti-backlash bar?

Alan

[KeysReels]

Alan! quick...grab the stick and I will pull you out! Actually I am in the swamp as much as you. The handle is 2-1/2" center to center and the hole is 3/16". Not to steer you or anyone else towards a maker the handle does match my Montague reels...

Yes the spacing of holes is a bit wide for a levelwind plate but not sure how a backlash bar would work with the pillar in the way. Then again if this was custom a custom plate may have been made.
I do notice some Shakespeare reels have a large plate....think the Marhoff is one. I am hoping some of the Shakespeare guys look at the main gear and compare to their reels.

Perhaps as mentioned earlier the levelwind was mounted normal but the loop was upside down so it went under the middle pillar. Then the pillar would act as a stop so the levelwind loop did not flip backwards when reeling.
Man I wish someone else had the same reel.

Thanks.
Bill

[Steve]

Maybe it was an experimental model using a level wind like the one on this masterpiece:
The inventor felt that he didn't need a line guide. Put a curved "roof" over it, and Bingo!

[KeysReels]

Steve, I am happy that this reel has you feverishly looking through your stock of patent images! Your last post is interesting and could be a possibility. Don't you think it would be easier for the maker of this reel to simply use the levelwind of their time ( 1920-1930) then re-inventing the wheel? That there were already companies using levelwinds would it not make sense to just call up one them....let's say Shakespeare Co.... and just purchase a batch of levelwind shafts, gears and protector plates and adapt them for your needs?

I think this rational follows human nature....taking the path of least resistance.

I value your continued input.....Bingo Bango Bongo!

Bill

[wrong99]

Personally, I don't think it's any kind of production reel. I think it was just cobbled together from parts of different reels in someone's workshop. An experiment. Maybe a "lunch box special" from a factory worker?
Mark

[KeysReels]

Hi Mark,

You may be correct with your last added sentence...it being a Lunch Box Special . One is wise to question the maker of a reel when it does not meet normal reel design. Often those reels are the result of a talented machinist or a factory worker who had use of tools and could make their own reel accordingly.
I think when one carefully looks at this reel and thinks logically about it's construction it becomes more apparent that it was factory built or as you suggest , built by a factory employee as the parts are all factory built.
The parts are all german silver and that helps to solidify this theory...if the reel had parts of different finishes...styles...holes to nowhere then one could surmise it was cobbled together from other reels.

In any event I do appreciate your thoughts about this reel.

Thanks.

Bill