Milam v. Meek

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Eric J
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Milam v. Meek

Post by Eric J »

I really enjoyed reading Dr. Todd’s recent Reel News article about Milam v. Meek, and it reminded me of something I learned while researching the origins of The Anglers’ Club of New York. This may be old news to Milam collectors, but I’m posting it anyway just in case.
Edward Cave was a founding member of ACNY in 1906, and wrote an article in the May 1910 issue of Recreation magazine titled “Buying a Bait-casting Reel” in which he tells of meeting New York reel maker Julius Vom Hofe and the celebrated Kentucky reel maker Benjamin Cave Milam (no doubt a relative) in 1900. Later in 1916 Cave wrote about his love for his Meek reel. I guess he had his own personal Milam v. Meek conflict.
Edward Cave became a founding member of the Boy Scouts of America, and was the first editor of Boy’s Life magazine, also writing The Boy Scout’s Hike Book in 1913.



Last edited by kyreels on Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: name spelling correction
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Re: Milham v. Meek

Post by Mike N »

Eric, that’s a neat research find. For future Reel Talk search purposes, you may want to edit the title and text. There is no “h” in Milam.

Thanks

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Last edited by Mike N on Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Milam v. Meek

Post by kyreels »

Good info, thanks. Went ahead and fixed up the spelling of Milam so people can find this on searches.
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Re: Milam v. Meek

Post by Eric J »

Ha ha! Thanks Mike, I guess that truly establishes me as not being a Milam collector. We have a local park here in Kalamazoo called Milham Park, and that must have stuck in my brain. I got Meek right though so maybe there’s hope for me.
Thanks for the edit Kyreels.
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Re: Milam v. Meek

Post by KIWI »

Ih Dohn't khnow what they Ahre tahking abouht.
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Re: Milam v. Meek

Post by Eric J »

Righhhht.......
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Re: Milam v. Meek

Post by bettybarr »

Eric, Thank you! The best part is the second newspaper clipping where he tells us that he takes out his Meek reel to impress people and tells them it is the same maker of Joe Jefferson’s reel that Joe willed to Grover Cleveland. Pretty funny. Apparently it never fails to impress his audience.
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Re: Milam v. Meek

Post by Eric J »

Now if someone can just locate the rest of the 1910 Recreation article about BCM, JVH, and Pflueger we might learn something new. I’m not sure why I only kept the first page, but I can’t find the rest of it on the Internet.
Yes, it’s funny that he only pulled out the Meek to let other anglers know he was a serious angler.
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Re: Milam v. Meek

Post by colby sorrells »

Try Dennis Emerson over on Joe's Board. He collects magazines from the era. CS
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Re: Milam v. Meek

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Here is a bit more on Edward Cave -

I have copies of two letters and one original letter from Zane Grey to Edward Cave - 205 E. 42nd Street - New York.

In June, 1932 Grey writes to Cave about contacting the Montague Rod company in regards to having them build some special salt water rods including an extra large "Zane Grey Seven Seas Rod". It would appear from the letter that Cave did some sort of legal or promotional work and was perhaps functioning as a go between for Grey or Montague, between Grey and Montague. Either Grey had approached Montague or Montague had approached Grey through Cave about building a a series of three salt water rods that would have Grey's name on them and Grey would promote them. There is no talk in the letter about compensation for using his name but I am sure that is what was going on plus, Grey would get some free rods.
In a letter written to Cave in early September, 1932 it appears that Grey had been working with Montague on what he wanted in the rods and was going to go over the specs for the three rods with them. Again, Grey is writing to Cave about the progress but it is hard to figure how Cave figures into the deal.

In a letter written later in September, Grey had received the rods and writes Cave about his thoughts on the rods. In regards to the "Zane Grey Seven Seas Rod" Grey states, "The reel seats will take nothing but small reels, this is a terrible blunder".

Sidebar - One other letter that mentions the "Zane Grey Seven Seas Rod" is a February 1935 letter from Zane Grey to Ernest Hemingway, Grey had invited Hemingway to fish with him in New Zealand. Together they would try and find a sponsor and then collaborate on a book recounting their experiences. Hemingway must have sent him an, "I'm sorry I'm too busy letter", because in a March, 1935 letter Grey says he understands, writes about fishing, and then tells him about the virtues of the "Zane Grey Seven Seas Rod".

Since there has been no Montague literature (that I know of) uncovered that shows a line of "Zane Grey" rods I guess the deal between Grey and Montague fell through, however, Montague did build at least one set of rods including a "Zane Grey Seven Seas Rod" for Grey to test.

I was lucky enough to pick up Zane Grey's personal "Zane Grey Seven Seas Rod" along with a couple of his Hardy big game reels about 20 years ago. Below is a picture of the "Zane Grey Seven Seas Rod" which, at some point, Grey added a Shaver butt to because the original Montague butt, was in Grey's own words, "a terrible blunder". Would love to know more about Edward Cave if anyone has any further information.



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Re: Milam v. Meek

Post by Eric J »

That is a great rod Ed!
Edward Cave was the sub-editor under Perry Frazier for the Forrest & Stream Magazine.
They had been reporting on the early casting tournaments, and in particular the famous 1906 tournament in Kalamazoo, and Cave stated that “If a relatively small town like Kalamazoo can support a casting club then surely New York City could.” They arranged a meeting in the Forrest & Stream office with some of the most notable casters in the city and the ACNY was born.
He would have been well connected with tackle makers and famous anglers, but I would think that someone like Zane Grey could meet with any tackle manufacturers without the need for a middleman.
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Re: Milam v. Meek

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Yes, Grey did meet with many tackle makers as you have suggested, however, Grey lived in California and during the time he was writing to Cave he was also doing some fishing in Oregon. This fact would make an in person with the folks at Montague pretty inconvenient and I seriously doubt he made the trip, hence, he would require a go between. Up to this point Grey had done his salt water fishing with Shaver, Murphy, and Coxe rods. I have never seen mention of Grey using a Montague rod so I do not think that there was any previous history between Grey and Montague but, from the letters, it sounds like he was trying to work a deal. Grey had struck similar endorsement deals with tackle companies letting them use his name on reels, line and other misc. items of tackle. These arrangements fed into his ego, plus, he got the tackle he wanted made to order. Grey had already made deals with South Bend for the "Zane Grey Teaser", Pflueger for the "Zane Grey Hook", Ashaway for "Zane Grey" lines, Joe Coxe for the "Zane Grey" 12/0 reel, Hardy Bros for the "Zane Grey" reels, rods and hooks. Later he made deals with Kovalovsky as well as other tackle companies.

Perhaps it was a business relationship or perhaps Cave met Grey through fishing and they were simply friends. You mention that Cave was well connected. Perhaps Cave had connections at Montague and Grey asked him to be his go between with the introductions and whatever else he might need help during the process of getting the rods built and striking a deal with Montague. Grey's letters to Cave strongly indicated that he wanted Cave to pass along all the information that Grey was writing to Cave in his letters so that he would not have to do it himself. To me this sounds like a pretty tall favor, however, Grey was famous and some people would go out of their way to help a celebrity with Grey's status. Cave did take out his Meek reel to impress people, perhaps helping a celebrity writer and fisherman like Grey was just another way to impress.

I hope we can find out more about Cave including his vocation.
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Re: Milam v. Meek

Post by wrong99 »

Charlie (cwfly) from the bamboo forum thought this might help further the discussion.
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Re: Milam v. Meek

Post by Mike N »

reeltackle wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:33 pm Here is a bit more on Edward Cave -

I have copies of two letters and one original letter from Zane Grey to Edward Cave - 205 E. 42nd Street - New York.

In June, 1932 Grey writes to Cave about contacting the Montague Rod company in regards to having them build some special salt water rods including an extra large "Zane Grey Seven Seas Rod". It would appear from the letter that Cave did some sort of legal or promotional work and was perhaps functioning as a go between for Grey or Montague, between Grey and Montague. Either Grey had approached Montague or Montague had approached Grey through Cave about building a a series of three salt water rods that would have Grey's name on them and Grey would promote them. There is no talk in the letter about compensation for using his name but I am sure that is what was going on plus, Grey would get some free rods.
In a letter written to Cave in early September, 1932 it appears that Grey had been working with Montague on what he wanted in the rods and was going to go over the specs for the three rods with them. Again, Grey is writing to Cave about the progress but it is hard to figure how Cave figures into the deal.

In a letter written later in September, Grey had received the rods and writes Cave about his thoughts on the rods. In regards to the "Zane Grey Seven Seas Rod" Grey states, "The reel seats will take nothing but small reels, this is a terrible blunder".

Sidebar - One other letter that mentions the "Zane Grey Seven Seas Rod" is a February 1935 letter from Zane Grey to Ernest Hemingway, Grey had invited Hemingway to fish with him in New Zealand. Together they would try and find a sponsor and then collaborate on a book recounting their experiences. Hemingway must have sent him an, "I'm sorry I'm too busy letter", because in a March, 1935 letter Grey says he understands, writes about fishing, and then tells him about the virtues of the "Zane Grey Seven Seas Rod".

Since there has been no Montague literature (that I know of) uncovered that shows a line of "Zane Grey" rods I guess the deal between Grey and Montague fell through, however, Montague did build at least one set of rods including a "Zane Grey Seven Seas Rod" for Grey to test.

I was lucky enough to pick up Zane Grey's personal "Zane Grey Seven Seas Rod" along with a couple of his Hardy big game reels about 20 years ago. Below is a picture of the "Zane Grey Seven Seas Rod" which, at some point, Grey added a Shaver butt to because the original Montague butt, was in Grey's own words, "a terrible blunder". Would love to know more about Edward Cave if anyone has any further information.



Very, very cool, Ed. Thanks for posting.

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Re: Milam v. Meek

Post by Mike N »

wrong99 wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:13 pm Charlie (cwfly) from the bamboo forum thought this might help further the discussion.
Mark, thanks. I found the article cite : “Country Life in America” magazine, September, 1913.
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Re: Milam v. Meek

Post by Eric J »

That’s great to see a picture of him. Cave was also doing high speed photography of fly casting back in 1907. Way ahead of the times. Odd that it doesn’t mention his time at Forrest & Stream magazine.
Thanks for sharing!
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Re: Milam v. Meek

Post by reeltackle »

Thanks for your posting Mark!

I think we found a possible connection between Cave, who was an editor for Field & Stream, and Grey, who had 36 of his stores published in Field & Stream between the years 1903-1937. The two were both ardent sportsmen and most likely worked with each other through the magazine. If this was the case then it may stand to reason that Cave might have been doing Grey a favor and that their affiliation was one based on friendship rather than business.
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Re: Milam v. Meek

Post by Mike N »

In January of 1917, Edward Cave was editing the magazine Recreation which was “a great deal like Field & Stream,” while Zane Grey was already writing for F&S. But their paths in life were getting closer.

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Re: Milam v. Meek

Post by Mike N »

Charlie (cwfly) sent me this little nugget to post here:

Printer's Ink, Vol. 89, No. 1, (New York, 10/1/1914) at 20:
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Re: Milam v. Meek

Post by Eric J »

While Frazer & Cave were working at Forest & Stream Magazine in 1906, they announced a new book by Dr. Zane Grey titled “The Last of the Plainsmen” published by Outing Publishing Company of New York, which was the same publishing company that Perry Frazer used for his books.
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Re: Milam v. Meek

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same publishing company that Perry Frazier used for his books.
Not to mention J.A. Henshall, S.G. Camp, Grover Cleveland, et many al.

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Re: Milam v. Meek

Post by Eric J »

This is exactly what I like about ORCA and Reel Talk in particular. One obscure reference to Edward Cave and many nuggets of information pour forth!
Here is a letter I found tucked inside a copy of Perry Frazer's 'Amateur Rod Building' book:


And here is my transcript of the entire letter:

Oct 5, 1907
Mr. Chas. C. Elliott
Elgin, Ill

My dear friend,
Your kind letter and book came in due time, and I thank you for both.
Have ordered copy of McClelland’s book and will return yours when it comes.
Don’t bother about your vise. Will wait until the new one comes. All I need one now for, is that I am tying such tournament flies as I need. Am progressing slowly, and have made a few flies that give promise of something in the future that I need not hide. Just now am content with a red fly that will show plainly in distance casting, or in dry fly.
Mr. Grinnell has a lot of old English angling books he promised me, and as soon as he returns from Wyoming, will bring them home. Perhaps I may strike a gold mine among them, for they are all very old. I already have several works in my own library, and others at the office that I am pouring over.
Wish I had more time to read, but am working on my book, which I hope to bring out before the holidays. It will deal with amateur rod-making, repairing, etc. at first, and as there is a constant demand for something modern, think it will take. Second edition can be much larger in size and scope.
I won our first salmon cup last week- in the rain, too- and today the LaBranche cup for accuracy bait in Prospect Park- also in the rain and squall.
Will have a 15 foot Bethabara salmon rod to try next Saturday. The wood is some of the best Shipley has had, and I have an idea it will work well. It will cost much less than split bamboo, and has good action that some bamboo rods lack.
Some of the pictures Cave and I made with high speed shutters cause us all to wonder how any rod can stand the strain of a heavy salmon line. The curves are almost like an S. I believe my bamboo salmon rod is much better than the new Leonards used. They have not proved very satisfactory with heavy lines, or any lines in fact. One thing salmon casting does, is to make the ten-ounce rods seem light, and I fancy I can do better casting with single-hand rod after using the salmon rod. It gives splendid practice in handling both back and forward casts. You can feel the line, and get a better idea when you are casting correctly.
Will write you again soon. Four of us are going up in the Hackensack woods tomorrow for some canoe and “trout fishing” pictures!
Yours sincerely,
Perry D. Frazer
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Re: Milam v. Meek

Post by Mike N »

So long as the thread has a substantial nexus with “vintage fishing reels,” I find some of these offshoot discussions interesting.

To have a website about old reels that does not discuss, at least tangentially, reel seats and vintage rods, is kind of like having a thread about old radio vacuum tubes that does not discuss old radios.
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