South Bend AB Bail Apparatus
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South Bend AB Bail Apparatus
How is this system supposed to work? What's the thinking? Seems counterintuitive stopping the line ahead of a spinning spool. There is a spool brake associated (although it seems an unnecessarily complicated system when trying to get the two to work together). What exactly is the bail supposed to do? It was made for a long time. But I do notice a number of these reels with the bail missing, presumably removed due to frustration in maintaining?
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Re: South Bend AB Bail Apparatus
The relevant patents, how they worked, and how they came to be used in SB reels have been discussed at length in my book and several books by Jim Madden and Len Sawisch, all available in the ORCA store. My book also describes a bunch of other line-activated brakes, suggesting that the idea was not quite as counterintuitive as one might intuit.
Meanwhile, SB brakes have been discussed here for a long time. A few examples:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=347&p=1191
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6046&p=27046&hilit= ... ake#p27046
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14086&p=63106&hilit ... ake#p63106
Meanwhile, SB brakes have been discussed here for a long time. A few examples:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=347&p=1191
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6046&p=27046&hilit= ... ake#p27046
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14086&p=63106&hilit ... ake#p63106
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Re: South Bend AB Bail Apparatus
My thoughts on this topic: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23142&p=110121&hili ... ob#p110121
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- Ron Mc
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Re: South Bend AB Bail Apparatus
I posted this a few years ago - ok, more than a few
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3666Ron Mc wrote: ↑Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:55 am
Hi Doc,
there is a spring-loaded bail across the front of the reel frame. The line goes underneath. Tension on the line lifts the bail. Lifting the bail, through a lever, also lifts a brake pad from the inside of the spool.
That lets the spool spin freely, with tension only from the spindle endcaps.
The tensioning knob at the top of the face plate adjusts the gap between the brake and spool, which essentially dictates how far the lever has to move before the brake is applied (or freed) and also how hard the brake is applied.
When you're winding or casting, tension on the line lifts the bail and frees the spool.
When the line goes slack, the spool brake shuts the spool down.
What I don't understand is why nobody is making a modern version of this mechanism - it works wonderfully.
When it's properly adjusted, you use your thumb on the spool only for the backcast - you don't have to use your thumb at all to stop the spool.
Everybody I've handed the rod to in the past couple of days (bass fishing boys) has been enthralled with it.
Last edited by Ron Mc on Sun Dec 19, 2021 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: South Bend AB Bail Apparatus
I gotta try one of these some day.
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Re: South Bend AB Bail Apparatus
Thanks guys.
Ron, that’s a really good description. Thanks for that. I have one that works pretty well although I didn’t really understand how. And a couple more that aren’t quite right. They do seem to be difficult to adjust. But knowing what I’m shooing for helps a lot. Will tinker with the others and see what I can get.
Ron, that’s a really good description. Thanks for that. I have one that works pretty well although I didn’t really understand how. And a couple more that aren’t quite right. They do seem to be difficult to adjust. But knowing what I’m shooing for helps a lot. Will tinker with the others and see what I can get.
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Re: South Bend AB Bail Apparatus
J.W. Young made an under-rod version for S. Allcock, the Easicast.
I have a Stephenson 7' spinning rod with small agate guides, and it will lob 3/8 oz 150'
Relaxing the bail places the brake shoe against the spool rim.
I have a Stephenson 7' spinning rod with small agate guides, and it will lob 3/8 oz 150'
Relaxing the bail places the brake shoe against the spool rim.
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Re: South Bend AB Bail Apparatus
yes, mine is a prewar version, yours postwar.
The mechanism is the same - only the tension adjustment is different.
1939 Allcock's Anger's Guide
We may want to start a separate thread on English spinning reels, and let this one return to the OP topic.
Wm Mills & Son 1922
The mechanism is the same - only the tension adjustment is different.
1939 Allcock's Anger's Guide
We may want to start a separate thread on English spinning reels, and let this one return to the OP topic.
Wm Mills & Son 1922
Last edited by Ron Mc on Sun Dec 19, 2021 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: South Bend AB Bail Apparatus
True although the check works pic clearly shows how the design concept works.
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Re: South Bend AB Bail Apparatus
Adding a ps about photo presentation - it's not really a pet peeve, which I endeavor to avoid, but a point worth repeating.
Notice oblique views are better for showing the substance of a reel. We all know they're round, and oblique views let us see all 3 dimensions in relative perspective. Plan perspective is best for macro details or accurate measurements.
Notice oblique views are better for showing the substance of a reel. We all know they're round, and oblique views let us see all 3 dimensions in relative perspective. Plan perspective is best for macro details or accurate measurements.
Last edited by Ron Mc on Tue Dec 21, 2021 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: South Bend AB Bail Apparatus
To me, the coolest anti-backlash design was that of Farlow's Billiken reels. The design concept was to use a "fan regulator."
Ron Gast
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Re: South Bend AB Bail Apparatus
Charles Noe patented a fan brake in 1873. At least one Noe reel is known, so it's likely the fan brake actually made it past the drawing stage.
Steve Vernon
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Book: ANTIQUE FISHING REELS, 2nd Ed.
Websites:
Antique Fishing Reels
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Hendrick reels
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Re: South Bend AB Bail Apparatus
Hey Steve, do you by chance a photo of the Noe reel?
Ron Gast
https://reelsnlures.com
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Re: South Bend AB Bail Apparatus
No, but it was sold at Lang's a long time ago....a photo...
Steve Vernon
ORCA Honorary member
Book: ANTIQUE FISHING REELS, 2nd Ed.
Websites:
Antique Fishing Reels
Kopf reels
Hendrick reels
"Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose."
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Re: South Bend AB Bail Apparatus
Nifty. The finned spools on Penn Squidders comes to mind. I seem to remember seeing another air brake concept -possibly one mentioned above- but I can’t recall where.
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Re: South Bend AB Bail Apparatus
Air brake, I love it.
The first centrifugal brake I know of was the Redifor patent, snapped up by Pflueger.
It consisted of two pivoting teardrop-shaped pawls, opposed on the spool flange, which rubbed on the frame rim.
Unfortunately, it worked too well, and cost cast distance.
Though it's on the faceplate spool flange instead of the tailplate as implied in this ad drawing
________________________________________________________
If you guys have ever fished your Meeks, Talbots, or Jack Welch Heddons, filling the spool oil reservoirs daily creates an anti-backlash device that I have to believe was intentional.
Oil whirl results in the oil fluid level, applying a braking force to the spindle ends.
The function compares to a modern mag brake.
You can hear the oil whirl in your cast, and it works hard, gradually evaporating the oil.
These reels were never intended for grease, and you should note they also contain ports for oiling the main gear daily.
Meek 30 is the only Marhoff copy I've cast that competes with NLW for distance.
Touchy casting brake that compares to the SB ABL spool contact, and works quite well when adjusted properly.
__________________________________________________________________
The all-time jewel casting reel has to be 1st model Pflueger Supreme Douglas patent.
Anti-reverse, freespool, and a LW mechanism independent of Marhoff's patent.
On retrieve, the flyer pushes the line to either side, where the yokes pick up the line and drop it in the groove.
The flyer falls forward during cast, and is disengaged from the spool.
It was shelved with the end of Marhoff's patent rights, but the next comparable system was Lew's Speed Spool, and equivalent mechanisms in modern LP baitcast reels.
The arrow knob is a tiny spring wire on a cam applying light brake to the spool for backlash control, and works pretty well.
Here's the yoke that disengages the pinion gear ratchet (and main gear) from the spool when you wind the handle backwards to set up cast freespool.
The first centrifugal brake I know of was the Redifor patent, snapped up by Pflueger.
It consisted of two pivoting teardrop-shaped pawls, opposed on the spool flange, which rubbed on the frame rim.
Unfortunately, it worked too well, and cost cast distance.
Though it's on the faceplate spool flange instead of the tailplate as implied in this ad drawing
________________________________________________________
If you guys have ever fished your Meeks, Talbots, or Jack Welch Heddons, filling the spool oil reservoirs daily creates an anti-backlash device that I have to believe was intentional.
Oil whirl results in the oil fluid level, applying a braking force to the spindle ends.
The function compares to a modern mag brake.
You can hear the oil whirl in your cast, and it works hard, gradually evaporating the oil.
These reels were never intended for grease, and you should note they also contain ports for oiling the main gear daily.
Meek 30 is the only Marhoff copy I've cast that competes with NLW for distance.
Touchy casting brake that compares to the SB ABL spool contact, and works quite well when adjusted properly.
__________________________________________________________________
The all-time jewel casting reel has to be 1st model Pflueger Supreme Douglas patent.
Anti-reverse, freespool, and a LW mechanism independent of Marhoff's patent.
On retrieve, the flyer pushes the line to either side, where the yokes pick up the line and drop it in the groove.
The flyer falls forward during cast, and is disengaged from the spool.
It was shelved with the end of Marhoff's patent rights, but the next comparable system was Lew's Speed Spool, and equivalent mechanisms in modern LP baitcast reels.
The arrow knob is a tiny spring wire on a cam applying light brake to the spool for backlash control, and works pretty well.
Here's the yoke that disengages the pinion gear ratchet (and main gear) from the spool when you wind the handle backwards to set up cast freespool.
Last edited by Ron Mc on Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: South Bend AB Bail Apparatus
Great info Ron, it aligns with the info I have procured through conversations with tournament casters over the years. The use of special oils and no backlash controls became the predominant methods used for accuracy and distance depending on the weight of the event, either thru rule or convention. Oil backlash control works in practice with vintage reels and a little practice. I don't recall ever having seen a good explanation for that, so thanks again.Oil whirl results in the oil fluid level, applying a braking force to the spindle ends.
The function compares to a modern mag brake.
Colby Sorrels also mentioned the Gulf Reel backlash control in a 1994 NFLCC article and as quoted in the Robert Miller History of the Pflueger Supreme Reel book.
On a different note I have always wondered exactly which Pflueger Supreme reels were [Edit] NOT freespool capable, but that should be discussed in another thread. I cannot figure it out from the book cited, some were pushbutton, some used the back crank.
Matt Wickham
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Collector of Casting Weights, KY Reels and KY Tackle
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Re: South Bend AB Bail Apparatus
thanks Matt - of course, I brought up the Douglas patent because of the unique adjustable casting brake.
But you can't bring up that prophetic reel without the rest of the prophecy.
totally off-topic ps - Daiwa's T-wing is a current falling line guide.
(if you click between these thumbnails, they animate nicely)
But you can't bring up that prophetic reel without the rest of the prophecy.
totally off-topic ps - Daiwa's T-wing is a current falling line guide.
(if you click between these thumbnails, they animate nicely)