How do you tell Original Moscrop from fake?

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RonG
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How do you tell Original Moscrop from fake?

Post by RonG »

I had heard that on the original reel the fisherman looks like he is smoking a pipe and the reproduction does not have a pipe. Any thoughts on this?

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Re: How do you tell Original Moscrop from fake?

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Book: ANTIQUE FISHING REELS, 2nd Ed.
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Antique Fishing Reels
Kopf reels
Hendrick reels

"Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose."
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RonG
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Re: How do you tell Original Moscrop from fake?

Post by RonG »

Interesting read Steve, but It would be nice for ORCA members to know what a real and what a fake reel looks like. More photos are needed.
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Re: How do you tell Original Moscrop from fake?

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Here is an example that I have owned for quite a while. It is made of hard rubber, brass, and has a German silver handle retaining nut and rim bands, The entire scene on the brass plate is quite detailed and is set into a hard rubber winding plate that extends out to the rims. There is a dedicated cut out and raised lip for the horn handle. I have always believed this example to be an original version of the reel sold/made (?) by Heaton.




Last edited by reeltackle on Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How do you tell Original Moscrop from fake?

Post by RonG »

Nice reel Ed. I hadn't seen that one before.
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Re: How do you tell Original Moscrop from fake?

Post by reelsmith. »

The fakes are almost always knob-less ...and have those goofy foot screws that look like wood screws.

More info ... https://www.thomasturner.com/heatons-fi ... follow-up/

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Re: How do you tell Original Moscrop from fake?

Post by Mike N »

RonG wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 10:37 am I had heard that on the original reel the fisherman looks like he is smoking a pipe and the reproduction does not have a pipe. Any thoughts on this?

Interesting topic, Ron. I’ve always avoided those otherwise fascinating reels for that exact reason.

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Re: How do you tell Original Moscrop from fake?

Post by Mike N »

reelsmith. wrote: Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:02 pm The fakes are almost always knob-less ...and have those goofy foot screws that look like wood screws.

More info ... https://www.thomasturner.com/heatons-fi ... follow-up/

Dean.
Thanks for sharing that, Dean.

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Re: How do you tell Original Moscrop from fake?

Post by RonG »

It'd be great if someone had a side-by-side of the real and reproduction reels for ORCA members future reference.
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Re: How do you tell Original Moscrop from fake?

Post by Stef Duma »

If I had a dollar for every time someone has asked me if they have a genuine Moscrop reel or a forgery, I would have enough money to buy a half-decent bottle of champagne. Similar to my often stated “this is the definitive guide to Moscrop and forged reel” this one definitely being the last time I write it.
The thread “How do you tell Original Moscrop from fake?” should be retitled “How do you identify a Moscrop Reel?”

This is something I am writing from mainly memory plus an old notepad, I am moving house, soon but have no idea when as we have sold our house and waiting for the legalities to happen, and half the house is packed away.

John Brown Moscrop was born in 1830 in Bury near Manchester and eventually worked as a cotton spinner after giving up architecture. He invented and patented several devices for the cotton industry which is where he made his fortune. He was a member of the Manchester Anglers Society and in 1888 was granted the first of three patents for his fishing reel.

I have never seen this reel as I suspect it would not work as described in the patent so a second application where he abandoned parts of the first application was submitted. I have seen a couple of examples of this reel, and they are spectacular, if somewhat impractical. In October 1892 he was granted his third patent.

The reels offered were in five sizes with the two smallest having the option of no drag fitted. The sizes were 2 5/8, 3, 3½, 4 and 4½ inches. Later would be added the impressive 5¼ inch with double nickel silver rollers. It must have been a nightmare to use as it weighed two pounds without the line.

He retailed the reel from 25 Market Place Manchester which was also a fishing tackle retailer Will Chambers. I believe that Moscrop made these reels himself in one of his workshops producing cotton spinning items.

Moscrop listed various features of the reel and number one NO SCREWS. As you can see the reels shown above have screws.

CAST CONSTRUCTION as above the reels are plate, pressed brass.

One thing that Moscrop did not highlight, but was in the patent, was the unique way the handle was fixed to the face plate and was still able to revolve in the handle receiver. There was no obvious pin showing, in later examples they were pinned.

Moscrop died in 1903 and the manufacture and retailing of his reels were taken over by Allcock and they might have subcontracted this work to Heaton. Allcock also offered the reel in Aluminium. In 1928 the last model was added, 4107AM. This is a very rare reel, and I must admit I have never seen one. It was only available in the 5¼ inch aluminium and was for Mahseer fishing. The reel had two handles and could hold 200 yards of the Allcock Anglo-Indian waterproof silk line.

Image
2 5/8 inch Moscrop in gunmetal with no tension adjuster, no screws.

Image
The reverse of the reel with the Moscrop medallion.

Heatons fisherman's reel is a whole new subject and I do have a couple of genuine samples packed away and might do something on that in the future.
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Re: How do you tell Original Moscrop from fake?

Post by RonG »

Thank you Stephan for your information about Moscrop. Us colonists don't know the history like you do.
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Re: How do you tell Original Moscrop from fake?

Post by Stef Duma »

Thanks Ron, but likewise on US tackle we can all learn from each other.
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Re: How do you tell Original Moscrop from fake?

Post by Paul M »

There was a relevant article written by James Hardman that was published in the Winter 2005, Vol 35, Number 1 edition of the American Fly Fisher that shows details about patent Moscrop marked reels versus fake markings (pg 10). I have one Moscrop that appears original given the way the name is sand-cast on the bottom of the foot as described by Hardman. I have seen a fisherman scene reel with some form of Moscrop marking eg ink/scratched with awl. I have always felt that fisherman scene reels marked Moscrops are fakes intended to fool collectors, not legitimate Moscrops product.

The fisherman scene reel was made by Heaton as illustrated in one of their early catalogues.

There are lots of crude imitations floating about. For the fisherman scene reel the main thing I would look for is the detail in the die/impression of the fisherman scene.
Image

I still have 3 Fisherman Reel specimens that I believe are original Heaton. I am guessing the sideplates were fabricated as medallions were made by the Heaton mint just like a coin is stuck. The crude imitations seems to be hand carved with little detail.
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Re: How do you tell Original Moscrop from fake?

Post by RonG »

Thanks for the photos Paul. There is a striking difference between your reel and the one that I posted a photo of.
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Re: How do you tell Original Moscrop from fake?

Post by kyreels »

Ron, seems like the pipe smoker is the fake one. The other reels do not reveal that characteristic.
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Re: How do you tell Original Moscrop from fake?

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Wanted: Kosmic Items, Small Leather Fly Reel Cases, Early Fishing Related Bottles, Fly Reels and Pre-1900 Angling/Casting Medals.

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Re: How do you tell Original Moscrop from fake?

Post by Mike N »

This one is currently listed on eBay:

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Re: How do you tell Original Moscrop from fake?

Post by BCharles »

Another tell that you're looking at a fake Moscrop is the reelseat. They are thicker than they should be and the curvature is overly pronounced.
Lastly they will have a metal handle rather than horn.
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