Garcia Mitchell 400 (spelled 4_0_0)

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trapper2359
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Garcia Mitchell 400 (spelled 4_0_0)

Post by trapper2359 »

Hello All,

Thank you to the admins for adding me, much appreciated. I have recently inherited a few reels from a very dear friend who passed away. I am working to get them back into proper shape for fishing and I am running into a few snags. Hoping someone out there can assist?

I have a Mitchell 400 with the 4_0_0 on the reel and stamped "Made In France". I cannot seem to find a schematic that I can fully rely upon for parts lists. One example is I purchased part # 81092 (rotating head) and the part was very close, but would not work. The boss on the line guide side of the bail has 4 cutouts on it rather than like the original which was just plain round. Of course I considered that the seller does not understand s/he is selling the incorrect part #, but additional research shows that same part # associated with the part with the cutouts. (everywhere I look).

The reason I am looking into this so carefully is that the reel has been overhauled top to bottom (by me) and all old grease removed, a good washing and degreasing and the put back together with new reel grease and reel oil in the appropriate places. Now, I know these old reels are not going to work as smoothly as the new fancy-dancy reels we can buy today, but this one is STIFF. Along with this 400 I got a 300 that I did the same overhaul to and it works much better than the 400, and of course much better than when I got it.

So - to summarize. I figured the rotating head was bad because when I spin the reel I hear 'gear noise'. I have tried adding/subtracting shims to no avail. It is LOUD and STIFF with gear noise. So I thought that the rotating head was bad. Haven't been able to test that theory but in comparing the gear teeth on the new head I bought to the old one they look very similar. No damage, no missing teeth, etc. Everything works smoothly (like butter) until I mate the rotating head with the reel body (engaging the pinion gear of course). But the pinion looks good and if it were bad it would have buggered up the head gear, right?

One last hint: I reel looks cockeyed when spinning. I.e., the spool comes up out of the rotating head at an angle, not perpendicular to the rotating head. Hope that makes sense?

Any help or ideas would be appreciated. I really want to get this working again so I can take my buddy's grandkids fishing with pa-pa's gear. How great would that be?

THanks all
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Re: Garcia Mitchell 400 (spelled 4_0_0)

Post by kyreels »

Here is a Mitchell 410 from the ORCA Library

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Re: Garcia Mitchell 400 (spelled 4_0_0)

Post by spadej1 »

That schematic is for the Mitchell 410 Matt. There is one for the 400 in the library, but I don’t have my password handy right now. Either way, it isn’t going to help as Mitchell would update the parts but not the part #’s on newer reels. Unfortunately, you only have a couple of options. First is to find a donor reel of the same era, which is probably easiest. Second is searching pictures of parts for the correct version. You could also try replacing the gears if its just a bad pinion, but I think this is tricky due to number of small parts in the 400. I “think” that many parts from a 300 from the same era would interchange, but you run into the small parts issue mentioned above (I heard there are a lot of small ball bearings in there). There may be a color difference though as the 400’s were blues.
You may be lucky and Dick Janak or another member has the correct version

I think you tried shimming the gears, but Mitchells are notorious for having gear noise and needing very fussy shimming in several places to get just right. Maybe yours just needs a shim in a different place, or needs a shim removed. They often get put in the wrong spot over years of takedowns.

I apologize in advance if anything posted above is incorrect, I’m going on some memory and was never an expert!

Edit: I see you said that the spool sits crooked, is there a possibility that the shaft is bent or something is wrong inside the rotor or spool?
-James-
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Re: Garcia Mitchell 400 (spelled 4_0_0)

Post by john elder »

Make sure the drag stack is straight in the spool. Also, run without the spool and see how the shaft acts….spinning true?
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Re: Garcia Mitchell 400 (spelled 4_0_0)

Post by trapper2359 »

Thanks to everyone for the replies.

I checked the true of the shaft and viola'! It is about 1/8" off from parallel (to the vertical part of the rotating head cup). Double checked by viewing it from 4 positions 90 degrees apart. Definitely tilts to one side....

So - That would mean that the upper portion of the shaft is bent and that a new shaft should solve my problems, yes?

Thanks again all -

BTW - I do have the 400 schematic downloaded from our site, that was my reference point for the part number I described as not working on my reel. I'm sure there are several iterations of 400 schematics out there, my reel just doesn't match (or the ebay sellers are selling NOS parts under the wrong part #) the schematic we have.

Best Regards,
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Re: Garcia Mitchell 400 (spelled 4_0_0)

Post by Midway Tommy D »

I've only ever seen one version of the 400 schematic, which is the one in Garrison Library. Before purchasing a new main shaft I would lay your existing shaft on a flat surface and roll it to make sure it is bent. It should be easy to tell when you roll it. You can also build the flat surface up to see if the portion with the plastic spool insert is bent.
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Re: Garcia Mitchell 400 (spelled 4_0_0)

Post by trapper2359 »

Hi All,

For Midway Tommy, here are 3 schematics for the 400 I have found. I stopped looking after I found these. While admittedly the "Mitchell 400" schematic should cover a different version of the 400 (during the time when Mitchell was pretty much building these on their own, not as "Garcia Mitchell") I just include it to show that (as an example) that schematic shows part # 81107 (cover plate bearing) that is not on any of the other schematics. I'm no expert, but I have read that this reel was manufactured in different parts of the world over a very many years, so it stands to reason that part numbers, schematics would/might change?

Next - For John Elder - You almost got me! I had to look at the calendar to see if it was April 1st. LOL The shaft doesn't spin, the rotating head spins via the gears in the body, driven by the handle which then also drive the shaft vertically, and do not spin the shaft. But good try, now I know to keep an eye on you! Ha ha.

Seriously, thanks to all. I already ordered a NOS shaft after using a square and a checking for the shaft to be perpendicular to the horizontal plane of the rotating head. It most definitely tilts to one side, about 1/8" off from the bottom of the shaft where it meets the rotating head to the top of the shaft. Heading out to the garage to remove it and roll it on the table as Tommy suggested, but I'm 99.99% sure what I am going to see.

Thanks!
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Re: Garcia Mitchell 400 (spelled 4_0_0)

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Re: Garcia Mitchell 400 (spelled 4_0_0)

Post by john elder »

Ha! I wish i was that clever, Trapper! Thanks for being so diplomatic! But at least i misled you to the fatal flaw, from the sound of it. Would seem worth trying to straighten that shaft when you have it out?
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Re: Garcia Mitchell 400 (spelled 4_0_0)

Post by trapper2359 »

Hi John,

Yes, you nudged me into looking at it a 3rd and 4th time!

I am going to try to straighten it, but it's bent pretty bad. Can't believe I had my hands on it so many times and never saw the bend. It is straight as an arrow from the bottom of the shaft up to the tiny gear that fits in the spool. Then WHAM it goes all cockeyed. Has a pretty good nick in it up there too, so it took quite a hit I guess. I'm going to wrap the straight part of the shaft and lock it in a vise while I try to move the short end back in line. I don't think it's gonna work, but I'm going to try. Probably going to wait until the new part gets here before I start, that way I'm 100% sure I'm not S.O.L. if I break the one I have now.

Thanks again -
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Re: Garcia Mitchell 400 (spelled 4_0_0)

Post by Midway Tommy D »

I doubt you'll be able to straighten it since it's bent close to or inside the plastic sleeve.

The first two schematics are for the original/early 400 with the tungsten line guide. They are the same other than one is from a service manual and the other is from an owner's manual. There is another newer one (in the Garrison Library) for the revised bail version that incorporated a line roller.

Browning bought Mitchell in 1980 and transitioned into Mitchell Sports in 1984. Your third schematic is only applicable to the post 1986 Mitchell Sports 400 with the red cover plate seal.
Love those Open Face Spinning Reels! (Especially ABU & ABU/Zebco)

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Re: Garcia Mitchell 400 (spelled 4_0_0)

Post by trapper2359 »

All who might be interested:

So probably 4 or 5 man-hours later I can report I have succeeded in getting the reel back to near new condition! A few points I learned that I want to pass on, then to the solution.

1. The fact that the shaft was bent (at the top, above the spool gear) had zero to do with the stiffness and gear noise. Since the bend was above the carrier shaft and the spool did not rub on the rotating head, it was an irrelevant issue.

2. I found that the baffle plate was missing the locating tab that fit into the slot in the shaft carrier, so I ordered one of those. (Not needed, don't even have it yet.) My thinking was I was having to tighten down on the nut above the baffle too hard because of the missing tab. WRONG... (The tab was likely broken when the reel was damaged by whatever hit it and bent the shaft.) Oh well, another spare part for my collection.

3. I finally put it all together with no spacers at all, leaving the side plate off. The big moment came when I pulled up on the rotating head and got an idea of the amount of play in the head (maybe .0020 to .0025?). I shimmed the crap out of the head and got to the point where the head was binding after attaching the baffle plate. Once there I removed one of the head shims and viola', works like a charm. So the tolerance it was looking for can only be described as a gnats a**. When I pull up on the rotating head I can feel it move, but just barely.

4. No shim behind the pinion gear, seems to work best that way. I did shim the main gear with two shims, but I did that early in the process so I'm not sure if that was truly needed.

5. I don't have the new shaft yet, but when I do I think I'm done. Yahoo!

I searched for days looking for a 'how to properly shim a Mitchell 400 reel' bit of information. Nada - Just trial and error I guess and, yes, remember to keep track of every shim when pulling one apart.

I am probably into this now for >$75, but it was well worth it. I get to take my buddies grandkids fishing with popa's gear. They are going to be stoked.

Keeping Tommy's comments in mind, can anyone think of which reel rotating head is being sold under part #81092 but is really not? As a reminder, I ordered a brand new 81092 to replace mine. It is the same in virtually every aspect except that the boss on the line guide side of the rotating head has 4 square cutouts around the mounting tab for the bail, and the original does not. I tried using the new one, but it is not compatible with the bail. I would like to politely correct the sellers who are selling these online under the wrong part number. Cost me $22 for a head I can't use. If anyone knows what reel it goes to it would be appreciated. Note: the new one I received is also the blue color, not black.
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Re: Garcia Mitchell 400 (spelled 4_0_0)

Post by trapper2359 »




I stand corrected. I pulled the schematic from this site and zoomed in on the rotating head (81092). This is exactly what I received but does not work on my reel. Instead of the cutouts around the mounting boss, mine is just a circular boss. So what reel do I actually have? Blue in color, "Made In France" clearly cast into the body, and it is a 400 (spelled with the dashes) 4_0_0.

What gosh damn reel is this?

Any help would be appreciated!
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Re: Garcia Mitchell 400 (spelled 4_0_0)

Post by Midway Tommy D »

The serial # might help date your reel a little closer than a general circa, but even the serial numbers can be a little factitious at times. See what's on the bottom of the foot and post it.
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Re: Garcia Mitchell 400 (spelled 4_0_0)

Post by trapper2359 »

Hard to read but it looks like the serial # is 4257650?

Can anyone explain why my reel has a rotating head with the square mounting boss for the bail and not the round one? I ordered a new bail using the 400 schematic part number and it fit just fine. Matched the old bail to a "T".

Seems to me at some point there was a transition from the part I have (unknown part #) to the newer one (part # 81092). I just can't wrap my mind around when/why? And, why can't I find a different part # in all of my research?

Something fishy is going on here (pun intended)....

LOL

Thanks,
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Re: Garcia Mitchell 400 (spelled 4_0_0)

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This is a picture I found on Ebay of a Garcia Mitchell 406 rotating head. This is what the bail attaching boss looks like on my reel....

FYI - In case that helps anyone figure out my situation?

Thanks,
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Re: Garcia Mitchell 400 (spelled 4_0_0)

Post by Midway Tommy D »

Chances are that at some point Mitchell's toolings/forms wore out and they made a new/different cast mold for the 300/400 rotors. The 300 & 400 rotors are basically the same except for the color.

Take a magnifier and double check the 4 to make sure it isn't an A. If it's a 4 it would have been a 1962 production. The 400 was made from 1963 - 1978. An A would be 1971. I have an F (1976) and the model # etching is 4 0 0 (no dashed connection between the #s).
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Re: Garcia Mitchell 400 (spelled 4_0_0)

Post by trapper2359 »

Thanks Tommy,

Just talking out loud here...

If they chose to cast using a different mold for the rotor, they MUST have known that the new casting would not work with the existing bail (as I have proven by trying to use the existing bail with the new rotor) and would have created a new bail part and part # to go with it, right?

Right! But they didn't. As someone already pointed out, there really is only one schematic (and set of part #'s) for the older 400, so how it the world did my 400 come out with a rotor that does not match the schematic part number BUT WORKS WITH THE SCHEMATIC PART NUMBER FOR THE BAIL THAT WILL NOT WORK WITH THE SCHEMATIC PART #? SPECIFICALLY - My rotor is not interchangeable with the part being sold and advertised in Mitchell publications, but the bail in the schematic works flawlessly with the original rotor. It will NOT WORK with the new rotor, however.

Again, I ordered (per the schematic) a brand-new NOS bail for this reel and it fit perfectly. When I tried to use the new rotor with that same bail (that worked flawlessly with the old rotor) it would not work at all. The 400's and the 300's are virtually the same, using a lot of the same part numbers, so this is really giving me a hard time. I often think this is not actually a 400, but I can't escape the fact that is it painted blue and seems to have all of the 400 parts inside.
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Re: Garcia Mitchell 400 (spelled 4_0_0)

Post by trapper2359 »

Sorry - Forgot to mention.

I have looked at the serial number every possible way that I can. I really think it is a "4", but the numbers are so faint, who knows?

In the end, does it really matter? I'm really not looking to age the reel, just looking to determine what reel I actually have so I can order parts confidently and keep this thing in top shape.

Thanks,
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Re: Garcia Mitchell 400 (spelled 4_0_0)

Post by spadej1 »

Trapper, I know it doesn’t make sense to us but Mitchell did update their parts with new versions and kept the part#’s the same. I’ve heard about it a number of times but just so you can see I found two different era Mitchell 300 schematics from Alan Tani’s site. They show both styles of rotor with the same part #’s. I’ve run into this at work with other companies too and it is really obnoxious. Check the schematics below:

https://alantani.com/index.php?topic=30597.0

https://alantani.com/index.php?action= ... 9767;image
-James-
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Midway Tommy D
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Re: Garcia Mitchell 400 (spelled 4_0_0)

Post by Midway Tommy D »

I don't dive too deep into the Mitchell doings and history, although I do have 25 or so various models, but I do know dating their reels can make a big difference in determining whether or not the reel was affected by a revision.

The original 400 came with a tungsten line guide. After a couple of years Mitchell switched to a line roller, which required a completely different bail assembly. That change may have required a different rotor, also.

Someone more versed on Mitchell reels could probably expand deeper into that aspect but that's about as far as my knowledge goes.
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Re: Garcia Mitchell 400 (spelled 4_0_0)

Post by trapper2359 »

Thx to Tom and James.

My personality flaw (one of many) is that the universe and all of its parts must be absolute. LOL

I typically don’t see grey, just black and white which is why I’m struggling. Anyway, I spent about 4 hours and $100 on several reels, spools and other misc Mitchell stuff on EBay. A few 400s and several 300s. It’s going to be fun to pull them apart and document what I find.

Thx again all.

Going fishing on Wednesday. Catfish, LMB and striper hopefully.

Tight lines
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Re: Garcia Mitchell 400 (spelled 4_0_0)

Post by Midway Tommy D »

trapper2359 wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 3:20 pm Thx to Tom and James.

My personality flaw (one of many) is that the universe and all of its parts must be absolute. LOL

I typically don’t see grey, just black and white which is why I’m struggling. Anyway, I spent about 4 hours and $100 on several reels, spools and other misc Mitchell stuff on EBay. A few 400s and several 300s. It’s going to be fun to pull them apart and document what I find.

Thx again all.

Going fishing on Wednesday. Catfish, LMB and striper hopefully.

Tight lines
I completely understand your "no gray" area ideology, I'm the same way. I shudder every time I see or hear the words "compromise or negotiate", but in past reel manufacturing processes there were an awful lot of less than well documented changes and revisions. Documenting the history of old, collectable and antique fishing reels is a work in progress and and continues to be an ongoing process. Just about the time reel/tackle researchers think they know all there is to know about a given subject a hitch in their git-along pops up to throw everything they thought they knew out of whack. :loco: :D
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