Trying to date these early Orvis cardboard boxes

[Mike N]

I really enjoy collecting early Orvis flies in their fragile green cardboard boxes or on cards. The problem is trying to figure out the dates Orvis retailers used a specific box, since the writing on the boxes had subtle changes over the years.

Orvis has long claimed its start of business as 1856. At least one of the boxes states Orvis had been in business “…for over Seventy Years,” which dates the box circa. 1927 or so.

My early Orvis catalogs indicate that for its perforated fly reel, at least, they discontinued offering the form-fit walnut boxes some time before1920 and thereafter began using the elusive green cardboard boxes for its 1874 patent reel.

[Mike N]

Here are a few other photos:

[Mike N]

On the Classic Fly Rod forum site, Royce S. pointed out that the round acetate plastic container is offered in the 1940 Orvis catalog and that he believes the “over 70 years” language indicates an Orvis company start date of 1870, not 1856.

[RonG]

Wow Mike, your collection of Orvis flies and your knowledge about them is growing more and more.

[Steve]

Orvis company start date of 1870, not 1856.

I would definitely determine a start date by calculating from a vague estimate on a box instead of hunting for actual sources of information. That "over 70 years" appears on earlier cardboard boxes.

Besides, accuracy is not exactly a prerequisite for package labeling or advertising in general. Take the 1878 Orvis ads touting "Rods, reels ,flies of my own manufacture," when the reels were being made by Manhattan Brass & Mfg. Co.

[Mike N]

Orvis company start date of 1870, not 1856.

I would definitely determine a start date by calculating from a vague estimate on a box instead of hunting for actual sources of information. That "over 70 years" appears on earlier cardboard boxes.

Besides, accuracy is not exactly a prerequisite for package labeling or advertising in general. Take the 1878 Orvis ads touting "Rods, reels ,flies of my own manufacture," when the reels were being made by Manhattan Brass & Mfg. Co.

Let me assure you, Steve, that rigorous debate and research has gone on about the Orvis start date, despite your comments. There has been, to use your term, plenty of “hunting.”

Here is a link to a handwritten letter by CFO in 1912 claiming he started in business in 1856.

https://news.orvis.com/fly-fishing/A-Pi ... ng-History

I believe that qualifies as an “actual source” of information.

However, I’ve been told that early next year an article will be published challenging that 1856 date.

[Midway Tommy D]

Interesting, but the phrase "continue the business which I have been in since 1856" seems to create more questions than answers. Why didn't he state started, created, formed, etc. ?

Lots of people started out as apprentices working for someone else back in those days. Even his obituary is somewhat vague regarding his various endeavors.

[Mike N]

Wow Mike, your collection of Orvis flies and your knowledge about them is growing more and more.

Thanks, Ron.

[Steve]

Let me assure you, Steve, that rigorous debate and research has gone on about the Orvis start date, despite your comments.

Let me assure you, Mike, that I'm fully aware of the rigorous debate and research. The point that I thought was quite clear was that estimating the starting date of a company based on a label on a box whose date of manufacture is, itself, an estimate is silly.

While we're at it, here's another 1856 vote. Looking forward to that article.

[Mike N]

OK

[Jim Schottenham]

I'm firmly in the camp that believes when Charles Orvis claims to have been in business since 1856, he was telling the truth. Now, was he selling fishing tackle exclusively? No, of course not - he wore a number of hats, and as a savvy
businessman sold other items in his shop - golf equipment and apothecary services were among other items offered.
When Johnny Morris started Bass Pro shops it was in his father's Brown Derby liquor store - is anybody discounting the number of years until he had a BPS that sold nothing but tackle? But wait - they, like Orvis, have always sold other non-angling items in the catalogs and stores.

The United States Department of the Interior also recognizes the Orvis Company as beginning in 1856:

From section 8:
"This area of Manchester has long been associated with the tourist and resort trade.
The buildings in the district include several present or former inns or hotels, dating
from the earliest years of the 19th century.
The Equinox catered to the highest classes of society; its clientele was primarily from
New York. Visistors over the years included Mrs. Abraham Lincoln and her son, Robert
Todd (who built,the nearby Hildene, listed in the National Register on October 28, 1977);
Mrs. U.S. Grant; numerous corporate moguls, two ambassadors, "and Theodore Roosevelt and
William Taft.
In 1853 when the Equinox consisted of only the north half of the present hotel (#11A-C),
it contained 125 rooms. By 1883 the two halves had been joined, and in 1887 advertise-
ments featured running, mountain water in the rooms, which must have been a strong induce-
ment to the city dwellers. By 1916, the hotel had expanded to 200 rooms. However, the
way of life which fed this type of grand hotel was already disappearing, and in 1927
the bottling plant (for Equinox mountain water) was converted to a waiter's dormitory.
In 1938 the Equinox filed for bankruptcy.
The hotel business was the chief economic base for the town, but the Orvis family was
also involved in other pursuits. The Orvis Company, now a major retailer of fly-fishing
and other sporting equipment, was founded in a house in Manchester in 1856. Its subse-
quent location was the second floor of what is now the Johnny Appleseed Bookstore (#4).
Members of the Orvis family owned, at various times, the Equinox, the Orvis Inn, and
the Orvis Building on Union Street."

You can read the entire document here:

https://npgallery.nps.gov/GetAsset/2d28 ... ca085bc530

[kyreels]

Seems like there is overwhelming evidence that Orvis start date in business was 1856. Therefore, I would consider the matter of the age of the Orvis cardboard boxes to be one that started 70 years from there and ended when it last appeared in a catalog. So circa 1927 to 1940 or more. The only way to be certain on the starting age would be to find a catalog, ad or sales record.

[Steve]

The link I provided above is to a page from
Dodge, P.C., Encyclopedia Vermont Biography. Burlington, Vt.: Ullery Publ. Co., 1912, pg. 278. It dates the tackle making to 1856.
And here is one book that mentions the 1870 date, from
Orvis, F.W., A History of the Orvis Family in America. Hackensack, N.J.: Orvis Co., Inc., 1922, pg. 54.

CHARLES FREDERICK - Born June 19, 1831 , at Manchester, Vt. Died March 24 , 1915. Married April 25 , 1856 , at Manchester, Vt. , Laura Ellen ( Walker) , who died October 3 , 1903 .
In a letter received by the author about January 1, 1913, C. F. says : “ Pardon me for not answering your previous letter, for I am a very busy man and 81 years old ."
Both are buried in their family plot in Manchester, Vt. On the stone beneath the usual inscriptions of dates this line appears : “ And their love never faded ."
Charles Frederick Orvis was born in Manchester , Vt . , June 19, 1831 , and died in his eighty -fourth year, March 24 , 1915 , at Manchester . He was known all of his life as an ardent and militant Democrat and his outspoken views earned him the sobriquet , among those who knew him , of the “Nestor of the Democrats of New England.”
In 1855 , he married Laura E. Walker and the same year was proprietor of the Equinox House, Manchester, which was founded by Orvises and conducted by successive generations down to the year 1921. Charles F. Orvis did not remain in the hotel business but about 1870 began the manufacture of fishing tackle and anglers' supplies , a business which grew to considerable proportions and is now conducted by his sons, Albert C. Orvis and Robert J. Orvis , at Manchester.

Both of the above are examples of what we call sources, and both are cited in my book.

And for fun, here's an ad from the New York Times, June 27, 1860:

[roycestearns]

The real question is what is meant by in business “since 1856”. Charles was in business for himself in a number of different businesses since 1856, so yes, Charles was in business as Charles Orvis at 25 years of age (1856). Unfortunately we don’t have any business licenses or advertising that show Charles was producing fishing tackle in 1856-1870. Did he make his first rod in 1856, possibly, but there is no source that says CF Orvis company became a tackle company in 1856. Did he produce tackle from that day forward, that’s highly questionable. The sources show there was tackle being manufactured in Manchester VT starting in 1866/67 but it wasn’t by Charles.

Sources from the 1850-70’s show: Charles Orvis was the middle of 7 children. When Charles was 18 years old, his Father, Levi C., died leaving a widowed Mother, and two younger siblings at home. Levi ran a mercantile/general store next door to the family home. Did the boys, Franklin (25) and Charles keep that going (no source yet)? By 1854, Franklin, 7 years senior, was in NY learning the hospitality biz and Charles was the proprietor of the Equinox inn, his boyhood home. Yes, before Franklin took it over and made it famous, Charles was running it as the proprietor.

In the early 1860’s Charles had started a drug store / general store across the street from the family home, at the corner of Union and Main, and sold everything including fishing tackle (advertised as brought in). At the start of the Civil War, Charles was training and testing sharpshooters for the union army. Post civil war Charles became a dentist/surgeon (no special training required) and a hotel proprietor. By 1868 Levi C Orvis JR. took over the Drug store at main & union.

In the early 1860’s Charles was very good at advertising. The artwork stands out, and I haven’t been able to determine if the art is by Charles or someone else. What is significant, is advertisement from the late 1860’s identifying Manchester as a destination for trout fishing, and identifies the tackle retailer in Manchester and it is NOT CF Orvis.

I didn’t expect Mike to take this public yet, but as I previously indicated to Mike, a Manchester tackle genesis publication will be available March 2023.

Now back to regular scheduled programming, Mike has a great collection of Orvis boxes, does anyone have source dates for his ephemera?

[Mike N]

I’m not sure there is anywhere else on the ‘net where one can find this type of rigorous debate and discussion by leading experts on vintage tackle issues. One need only provide a vessel and the drink begins to stir itself.

With the publication several years ago of the seminal “History of the Fishing Reel,” the Old Reel Collectors Association established itself as a leading authority on antique fishing reels and continues that leadership every three months with its quarterly publication, Reel News, under the stewardship of Richard Lodge.

It’s great to see this scholarship continue to spill over to Reel Talk. The ability of ORCA to continue to have the technical and financial wherewithal to preserve the information that appears on this website long into the future is paramount . A sincere thank you to each of the contributors above.

Mike N.

[Mike N]

In its 2021 obituary for the late Orvis owner, Leigh Perkins, the New York Times— with its renowned fact-checking department— wrote:

Founded in 1856 by Charles F. Orvis, the company is the oldest mail-order business in the United States. It was sending out catalogs before the Civil War and predated Sears, Roebuck by more than 20 years.

Now, as we all know, the Civil War started in April of 1861. Richard Sears and Alvah Roebuck issued their first catalog, 322 pages in 1891. Has anyone ever seen a pre-1861 Orvis catalog or was this just NYT hyperbole?

In 2020, Royce and I started a list on CFRF of early known Orvis catalogs. The earliest we found was No.15 which we estimated to have been published in 1885. Here is a link to that list:

http://classicflyrodforum.com/forum/vie ... p?t=130015

[kyreels]

The earliest Orvis catalog in the ORCA library is No 22 from 1900. However, there are no flies from Orvis listed in that catalog. The 1904 catalog No 23 contains this page, noting the sturdy box that comes with carded flies:

[roycestearns]

In its 2021 obituary for the late Orvis owner, Leigh Perkins, the New York Times— with its renowned fact-checking department— wrote: Founded in 1856 by Charles F. Orvis, the company is the oldest mail-order business in the United States. It was sending out catalogs before the Civil War and predated Sears, Roebuck by more than 20 years.

Hyperbole. Jerry G has the earliest CF Orvis catalog which was literally a postcard front and back early 1870's. We do have tackle from 1850 manufacturers that were only in existence for a handful of years, how come we don't have any tackle from C.F. Orvis pre 1870? It's like bigfoot, there's hyperbole but no real evidence.

Here's the local CF Orvis obituary from 1915.

[Steve]

Did he make his first rod in 1856, possibly, but there is no source that says CF Orvis company became a tackle company in 1856.

We're asking two different questions:
1. When did CFO establish his company?
2. When did CFO begin making tackle?
Quite a few sources state that he turned his rod-making hobby into a rod-making business. CFO was probably in business by 1856, as his later ads and letter indicate. After all, he was recently married and needed an income. But what was the business?
The Equinox Company was established in 1853 and incorporated in 1858 "for the purpose of purchasing or building a house or houses of public entertainment, and other necessary and convenient appendages thereto..." CFO, along with at least five other Orvi, was a member of the "body politic." Could he have joined and been "in business" in 1856?
CFO listed himself only as a dentist in the 1860 census. At the same time, he managed the Manchester Hotel. June 6, 1860:

He was even busier during 1861, when he opened a new drug store that sold fishing tackle and also was "secretary" of the Equinox House. Ads from June 18, 1861, July 4, 1861, and Nov. 12, 1861:

Ads continued to demonstrate his versatility. One 1863 ad by the New Lamp Chimney Mfg. Co., 45 Fulton St., N.Y., named CFO as their agent, selling Brown's New Metal Top Lamp Chimney. Other ads, Sept. 15, 1863, and May 17, 1864:

We can safely say that CFO had been "in business" at least as early as 1858 and had started a business by 1861. Depending on how all his activities are defined, we should take his word that he was "in business" by 1856.
As far as tackle goes, we know he was selling tackle at least as early as 1861. He advertised as early as Jan., 1871, that he was making rods. Obviously, he had begun earlier.

My take from all this stuff is that CFO was in business by 1856, and it was his business that evolved into the C.F. Orvis Company. Note that the early advertising lacked the word "company," and I don't know when it first was used. Maybe he had made rods as a hobby way back, but there's no evidence anyone appears to have seen that proves he sold rods of his own make until later, perhaps 1870 as some sources state.
One hint we may have: George H. Swift was the only rodmaker named in Manchester in an 1870 Vermont State directory. The 1870 census named him as a "manufacturer/fishing rods." Swift later became a dentist, like CFO. A possible relationship between Swift and CFO could use investigation.

[Mike N]

“A possible relationship between Swift and CFO could use investigation”

Here is a connection between Swift and CF Orvis by way of Eggleston;

Link: https://featherclassics.com/orvis.html. (NOTE:This is Royce Stearn’s research)

1868 – January 28 Manchester Journal page 2
Swift & Eggleston, have commenced the manufacture of fishing rods in this place. They are both excellent mechanics, and with their past experience in the business, and aided by the best machinery adapted to their work, we have no doubt they will turn out rods that it will do the disiples of Sir Izaak good to handle

1868 – January 28 Manchester Journal page 3
Fishing Rods.
Swift & Eggleston manufacturers of superior Fishing Rods.
Split Bamboo, Lance Wood, Hardhack, Cedar, and other Fly and Bait Rods on hand and made to order. Repairing done in the best manner
Manchester, Vermont
(featherclassics.com)

Not sure if anyone has the catalog, but per Royce: “A papered label ‘Manchester Fishing Rod Manufactured By - Swift and Eggleston Manchester Vermont’ came up for auction at Olivers in 1987.”

CF Orvis acquired his famous fly rod reel seat patent from Hiram Eggleston in 1882. I have not seen the original Manchester Journal ads, but I assume this is the same Eggleston.

[Steve]

This is Royce Stearn’s research

That certainly would have saved a lot of typing time if we'd seen it earlier.

[Mike N]

When I saw Steve’s post last evening about George H. Swift, a name I don’t recall ever seeing before, I simply searched Swift + Orvis on Google and that web link and several publicly-available discussions popped up. I’m still not sure where it leaves the question of dating the one box marked with “over 70 years” after CFO went into business.

I did find several sites that claimed CFO began as a “Company” in 1856 without referencing proof of a formal business organization such as a corporation, which is typically registered with the Secretary of State in the state where business is being organized. Hence, I can see how a fly fishing purist would find such claims troubling.

See the use of the phrase “…in 1856, Charles opened C.F. Orvis Company” by the Catskills Fly Fishing Center and Museum below:

[Jim Schottenham]

CF Orvis acquired his famous fly rod reel seat patent from Hiram Eggleston in 1882.

Close, but in fact he purchased the rights in 1881 for a whopping $10:

[Mike N]

Jim,

In many states the amount stated as consideration in a legal instrument (“ten dollars”) is a mere recital indicating consideration changed hands making it a binding contract without disclosing to third parties the actual amount paid.

You frequently see such recitals in General Warranty Deeds conveying real estate where the consideration recited is often “ten dollars and other good and valuable consideration.” One of the parties then discloses separately and often confidentially to any taxing authority the actual amount paid on which a transfer tax would be levied.

Or, of course, CFO could have actually paid Eggleston $10….

[Steve]

As of 1880, Swift was a dentist and Eggleston was a carpenter. We could use info on any CFO relationship with them a decade earlier. Swift, Eggleston, and Orvis had something in common besides rod bits. From the Bennington Banner, May 8, 1884:

I like A.J. Gray's opinion.