Trying to date these early Orvis cardboard boxes

Use this forum to share your stuff so round up your favorite reels! Questions can still go to the Reel Talk - General Forum
roycestearns
Frequent Board Poster
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon May 07, 2012 12:37 am
Location: Oregon

Re: Trying to date these early Orvis cardboard boxes

Post by roycestearns »

George H Swift began making fishing rods and selling fishing tackle post civil war, he brought Hiram Eggleston into the mix in 1868/69. At the end of 1870 they (Swift and Eggleston) had a large order from California. George Swift and Hiram Eggleston were working on the North side of Union Ave just east of the court house. At that moment Charles was a Dentist/Surgeon. In Jan 1871 Charles Orvis engaged in the manufacture of Fishing rods with Hiram Eggleston, and maybe George Swift, on the south side of Union (what became known as the CF. Orvis Rod manufacture building) across the street from the Swift and Eggleston shop, and George Swift became the Dentist! Hiram Eggleston the designer of the patented reel seat, became the rod maker at CF. Orvis fishing rod manufacturing. Hiram Eggleston remained in the rod making business at C.F. Orvis and became the premier carpenter in Manchester. Over the next couple of decades Hiram Eggleston trained other rod makers in the C.F. Orvis Rod making shop including Albert Orvis (son of Charles) and Edward Smith. There are other relationships that were created over the next couple of decades as George Swift, Hiram Eggleston and Charles Orvis continued to work together in the tackle business. One of the questions that remains open is was there someone else involved in the design/development of the patented 1874 reel? I believe so, however the sources are still not solidified.
User avatar
Steve
Star Board Poster
Posts: 3940
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 6:11 am
Contact:

Re: Trying to date these early Orvis cardboard boxes

Post by Steve »

Wow, that sums it up neatly! :bow:

Steve Vernon
ORCA Honorary member

Book: ANTIQUE FISHING REELS, 2nd Ed.
Websites:
Antique Fishing Reels
Kopf reels
Hendrick reels

"Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose."
User avatar
RonG
Super Board Poster
Posts: 1468
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 8:49 pm
Location: Frostproof, FL
Contact:

Re: Trying to date these early Orvis cardboard boxes

Post by RonG »

Wow, there's a lot of info here. I must have missed it, but when did CFO actually build his first rod for sale?
roycestearns
Frequent Board Poster
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon May 07, 2012 12:37 am
Location: Oregon

Re: Trying to date these early Orvis cardboard boxes

Post by roycestearns »

Charles notes in "Fishing with a Fly" (1883) that he was introduced to a real fishing rod when he was younger when he watched an older gentleman casting and fishing. The old gentleman lent him the rod, Charles put his "pole" away for good, until Charles could "obtain" his own. There is anecdotal evidence that Charles made a rod or three (presumed to be a wood rod) for he and some friends before 1870. The Manchester Journal publishes that a large order of fishing rods have come in to Swift and Eggleston in the fall of 1870, and that both Swift and Eggleston were excellent "mechanics". In Jan of 1871 the Manchester Journal publishes a snippet that Charles has begun manufacturing rods in Manchester, and all advertising for Swift & Eggleston ceases. There are other anecdotal pieces that suggest Charles inspected every rod that came out of the manufacturing site, but nothing indicates he built any rods. Charles had a perfect opportunity to discuss rod building in his book "Fishing with a Fly". After describing what a good fly rod should be and do, leaves it at " The details of rod-making having been so often told, I do not purpose making any suggestions on that subject, but will say that, in order to make a good fly-rod, the maker ought to know how to handle it when finished". Additionally there was published the suggestion that Charles went to Europe to learn to make rods. I find that extremely unlikely, Charles seemed to stay pretty close to home for his whole life. There was a trip to Florida after his brother opened a winter resort there, some number of trips to NY including a trip to court as a witness. And yet, I can't find evidence that he even went to the 1893 Chicago Expo where the company was recognized for Mary Ellen Orvis Marbury's display. One of the holes in the story is, George Swift is in the civil war, first in as a musician, then re ups as a regular, his dad dies in 64, he arrives home and moves in with his older brother Theodore and a widowed mother. What is the incentive to start build fishing rods in a very small market, and what happened during the civil war, that promoted a surge in fishing rod technology (Murphy, Leonard, Phillippe, Mitchell, Wheeler, Swift, etc) when these men arrived home.
User avatar
Steve
Star Board Poster
Posts: 3940
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 6:11 am
Contact:

Re: Trying to date these early Orvis cardboard boxes

Post by Steve »

what happened during the civil war, that promoted a surge in fishing rod technology (Murphy, Leonard, Phillippe, Mitchell, Wheeler, Swift, etc) when these men arrived home.
And what happened during WWI and WWII that prompted surges in fishing tackle technology? Probably nothing more than the post-horror chance to engage in the contemplative man's recreation.

Steve Vernon
ORCA Honorary member

Book: ANTIQUE FISHING REELS, 2nd Ed.
Websites:
Antique Fishing Reels
Kopf reels
Hendrick reels

"Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose."
User avatar
Mike N
Star Board Poster
Posts: 3763
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 1:50 pm
Location: WV

Re: Trying to date these early Orvis cardboard boxes

Post by Mike N »

Thanks for sharing all those years of research, Royce.

Mike
Mike N.
ORCA Founder, 1990
User avatar
kyreels
Super Board Poster
Posts: 1147
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:12 pm
Location: Louisville, Kentucky

Re: Trying to date these early Orvis cardboard boxes

Post by kyreels »

So Mike, what is the likely age of the boxes?
Matt Wickham
Collector of Casting Weights, KY Reels and KY Tackle
User avatar
Mike N
Star Board Poster
Posts: 3763
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 1:50 pm
Location: WV

Re: Trying to date these early Orvis cardboard boxes

Post by Mike N »

Matt-

Since Orvis has always used 1856, rightly or wrongly, as its company start date, cardboard boxes marked with “over 70 years” have to be in the circa. 4-year range of 1927-1930. I think we can stop at 1930 for those particularly marked boxes at least, since a 75th Anniversary in 1931 would likely have been publicized as such.

The 1940 catalog photo above shows the small square 3-3/4” x 3-3/4” boxes still being used in 1940, but they no longer have the “for over 70 years” labeling.

I have three very early Orvis catalogs spanning 18 years, shown below. Catalog No.17 is circa 1890: No. 22 is circa. 1900; and No. 25, which we know was issued in 1908 per a CFO letter.



None of those 3 catalogs dating from 1890 to 1908 specifically offer the smaller 3-/4” x 3-3/4” boxed flies on cork rings. Rather, all three offer flies with “names attached” that “are arranged on cards, packed in strong convenient boxes,” which I assume is this longer, rectangular (6” x 3-1/2”) box and card:



The last Orvis catalog I can find that mentions the Orvis fly reel sold with a form-fit wooden walnut case is from right around the turn of the century, after which cardboard boxes, similar to the one shown below on the right [but with a drawing of the reel on the label] were used for the reel, too. I assume it is right around this time (1900) when the smaller, square (3-3/4” x 3-3/4”) cardboard boxes started to be used for flies, too, since it makes manufacturing sense to use these same smaller boxes with different labeling for the reels and the flies.



(Blanchard Auction photo)
Last edited by Mike N on Sat Oct 29, 2022 1:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Mike N.
ORCA Founder, 1990
User avatar
Mike N
Star Board Poster
Posts: 3763
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 1:50 pm
Location: WV

Re: Trying to date these early Orvis cardboard boxes

Post by Mike N »

For the sake of completeness, here are two items Royce posted on the fly rod forum from the incredible collection of ORCA member Jerry Girard.

The first is the earliest known Orvis price list dated May 1, 1874 indicating Charles F. Orvis was making “Rods Made to Order” at that time. The “entirely new” German silver perforated Orvis fly reel is also offered for $5.00.



Next is a two-page Orvis flyer dated 1876:
Mike N.
ORCA Founder, 1990
roycestearns
Frequent Board Poster
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon May 07, 2012 12:37 am
Location: Oregon

Re: Trying to date these early Orvis cardboard boxes

Post by roycestearns »

I'd add this: 1900 is probably to early for the small box for flies. These boxes were only used for non snelled flies or flies on eyed hooks without a snell. Snelled flies were still being sold on cards in 1940.

I haven't seen non-snelled flies in the catalogs that came before Mary 1913 and Charles deaths 1915. In 1939 when Wes arrived the remaining fly tyer was Hallie Galaise who at some point started offering flies on eyed hooks. When was that?

The bigger rectangle boxes for snelled flies went away before the 1940 catalog, as the catalog states the cards came in cellophane envelopes. It seems that the earliest cards had beautiful handwritten fly size and id (in ink), later cards had typed tags glued on. There were several size and style of fly cards, and it appears the riveted cards were earlier than the die cut cards. Some of the cards can be dated by the style of hook and how the flies are tied. Many cards have had replacement flies installed which is unfortunate.
Post Reply