B.C. Milam Reels Marked U.S.A.
- leland99
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B.C. Milam Reels Marked U.S.A.
I recently acquired a brass B.C. Milam No. 3 stamped U.S.A. under the normal stamping. The "A" appears to have been over-stamped. Serial # 7852. My initial thoughts were this was an altered stamping with the USA being owner modified after it left the factory. When comparing it to my other B.C. Milam No. 3 reels, I found I have another brass No. 3 also stamped U.S.A. with Serial # 7849.
I am curious whether others have seen this U.S.A. stamping on B.C. Milam reels. Could these be factory stamps, possibly being intended for markets outside of U.S.A? To compound the issue further, I have been able to trace the #7852 reel to its early owner, who lived in Tennessee.
I am curious whether others have seen this U.S.A. stamping on B.C. Milam reels. Could these be factory stamps, possibly being intended for markets outside of U.S.A? To compound the issue further, I have been able to trace the #7852 reel to its early owner, who lived in Tennessee.
Bryce Tawney
The Reel Packrat
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- RonG
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Re: B.C. Milam Reels Marked U.S.A.
That's an interesting marking I haven't seen before. I have no idea what it is intended for. There's several possibilities like the one you mentioned. Question, rather than the "A" being over-stamped, could the original stamping have been accidentally offset with the "U" in "USA" being where the "A" is?
Ron Gast
https://reelsnlures.com
https://reelsnlures.com
Re: B.C. Milam Reels Marked U.S.A.
I seem to recall a discussion a while ago (possibly on another site) about fishing tackle similarly stamped. I believe someone attributed it to fishing tackle that was loaned to soldiers and their families at army bases for recreation, hence the US Army (USA) ownership stamp.
In any event, Bryce, what a cool and collectible reel.
In any event, Bryce, what a cool and collectible reel.
Mike N.
ORCA Founder, 1990
ORCA Founder, 1990
- leland99
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Re: B.C. Milam Reels Marked U.S.A.
Ron, good question and on point. Appears the initial stamp was a “U” lightly stamped, then the “A” was stamped on top.
Bryce Tawney
The Reel Packrat
Packing these reels into my nest hole: Talbot, Milam, Meek, Horton, Heddon, Wm Shakespeare Jr, and small diameter skeleton fly reels!
The Reel Packrat
Packing these reels into my nest hole: Talbot, Milam, Meek, Horton, Heddon, Wm Shakespeare Jr, and small diameter skeleton fly reels!
Re: B.C. Milam Reels Marked U.S.A.cues.
It took a number of emails and calls but we feel pretty sure that the U.S.A. mark is a country of origin mark. U.S. is the mark used on all militaria that belongs to the armed forces.
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- leland99
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Re: B.C. Milam Reels Marked U.S.A.
Thanks Betty for the time and effort to dig into this mark.
Bryce Tawney
The Reel Packrat
Packing these reels into my nest hole: Talbot, Milam, Meek, Horton, Heddon, Wm Shakespeare Jr, and small diameter skeleton fly reels!
The Reel Packrat
Packing these reels into my nest hole: Talbot, Milam, Meek, Horton, Heddon, Wm Shakespeare Jr, and small diameter skeleton fly reels!
- john elder
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Re: B.C. Milam Reels Marked U.S.A.
But… have to wonder in what time frame this reel would have been handled through the military. If given to troops in the late 1800s, that would mean that Old B.C. Would have spent a lot of time at the lathe to turn out enough to supply the army (Confederate army?) with casting reels. Not to take anything away from Milam reels, it would seem that if in the 1900s, such a contract would have gone to a company like Shakespeare or, more likely, Pflueger, who had the production facilities to produce the required number of reels.
Just some thoughts! I have no better answer for it unless USA didn’t stand for United States of America or US Army. Either case would have excluded the Confederate army. Probably too late for that anyway.
Just some thoughts! I have no better answer for it unless USA didn’t stand for United States of America or US Army. Either case would have excluded the Confederate army. Probably too late for that anyway.
ORCA member since 1999
Honorary Life Member
Specializing in saltwater reels...and fly reels...and oh, yeah, kentucky style reels.....and those tiny little RP reels.....oh, heck...i collect fishing reels!...and fly rods....and lures
Honorary Life Member
Specializing in saltwater reels...and fly reels...and oh, yeah, kentucky style reels.....and those tiny little RP reels.....oh, heck...i collect fishing reels!...and fly rods....and lures
- kyreels
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Re: B.C. Milam Reels Marked U.S.A.
I have to align with Betty and agree this mark is not a military mark, but rather a Country of Origin mark made for export requirements to certain countries. It would be interesting to know the history of such marks and when they came to be required. Since most hand-made reels were not exported, we can easily imagine they are fairly uncommon. I have not seen one on any of the English auctions with US hand-made reels. The mass-produced reels certainly had them.
Matt Wickham
Collector of Casting Weights, KY Reels and KY Tackle
Collector of Casting Weights, KY Reels and KY Tackle
Re: B.C. Milam Reels Marked U.S.A.
Why not the Civil War? I've never seen anything to suggest that Capt. B.C. Milam, who fought in the Mexican War under Gen. Zachary Taylor, favored the Confederacy. Veterans of the 10th Company of the First Kentucky Cavalry would fight on both sides during the Civil War....have to wonder in what time frame this reel would have been handled through the military
Steve Vernon
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- john elder
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Re: B.C. Milam Reels Marked U.S.A.
There should be some info out there to indicate whether or not he had a “Forget, Hell!” Bumper sticker on his carriage.
ORCA member since 1999
Honorary Life Member
Specializing in saltwater reels...and fly reels...and oh, yeah, kentucky style reels.....and those tiny little RP reels.....oh, heck...i collect fishing reels!...and fly rods....and lures
Honorary Life Member
Specializing in saltwater reels...and fly reels...and oh, yeah, kentucky style reels.....and those tiny little RP reels.....oh, heck...i collect fishing reels!...and fly rods....and lures
Re: B.C. Milam Reels Marked U.S.A.
Reels with the BC Milam marking were typically made from 1881 to 1890.
There seems to be an assumption that for it to be US Army property it would have had to purchased new from Milam. Through groups like the USO (founded 1941) used items are often donated to military bases for service members and their families to use, although admittedly that would have been a heckuva donation. Once donated and used as a loaner, it would have been marked as government property.
Union belt buckles were typically marked “US” during the Civil War, while the Confederacy used “CSA,” so I get that point.
I have not had the chance to research it in depth, but one writer noted:
“The first significant U.S. law that required products to be marked with their country of origin was the Tariff Act of 1890, also known as the McKinley Tariff (parts of which are still in effect), according to VanGrasstek.*** The Tariff Act of 1930, which built on the 1890 law, required that “every article of foreign origin (or its container) imported into the U.S. shall be marked with its country of origin,” unless it had special exemptions. Retailers are responsible for the labels.” Source: https://www.marketplace.org/2022/06/24/ ... in-labels/
Apparently some European countries reacting to German market dominance around 1890-1900 required country of origin stamping. [From article linked above: “Country-of-origin labels arose in the 19th century, when Germany started to rise as an industrial power,” he said. “So a lot of European countries began imposing these country-of-origin label requirements because they wanted their people to be able to know if products were being imported from Germany,” VanGrasstek added. “This inspired people in the United States.”]
I would be interested if anyone can find a statute enacted by a foreign country which covered EXPORTS from America contemporaneous with the time this reel was made, which would have required such a mark.
So, Milam, a small town Kentucky reel maker, knew about some foreign, obscure “country of origin” marking requirement? If so, why haven’t we seen many more Kentucky reels with a USA country of origin marking from that same circa. 1890 time period? [I have seen later Kovalovsky, Talbot and some Heddon reels with “USA” or “Made in USA” markings.]
Subpart B—Articles Subject to Marking
§ 134.11Country of origin marking required.
Unless excepted by law, section 304, Tariff Act of 1930, as amended (19 U.S.C. 1304), requires that every article of foreign origin (or its container) imported into the United States shall be marked in a conspicuous place as legibly, indelibly, and permanently as the nature of the article (or container) will permit, in such manner as to indicate to an ultimate purchaser in the United States the English name of the country of origin of the article, at the time of importation into the Customs territory of the United States. Containers of articles excepted from marking shall be marked with the name of the country of origin of the article unless the container is also excepted from marking.
There seems to be an assumption that for it to be US Army property it would have had to purchased new from Milam. Through groups like the USO (founded 1941) used items are often donated to military bases for service members and their families to use, although admittedly that would have been a heckuva donation. Once donated and used as a loaner, it would have been marked as government property.
Union belt buckles were typically marked “US” during the Civil War, while the Confederacy used “CSA,” so I get that point.
I have not had the chance to research it in depth, but one writer noted:
“The first significant U.S. law that required products to be marked with their country of origin was the Tariff Act of 1890, also known as the McKinley Tariff (parts of which are still in effect), according to VanGrasstek.*** The Tariff Act of 1930, which built on the 1890 law, required that “every article of foreign origin (or its container) imported into the U.S. shall be marked with its country of origin,” unless it had special exemptions. Retailers are responsible for the labels.” Source: https://www.marketplace.org/2022/06/24/ ... in-labels/
Apparently some European countries reacting to German market dominance around 1890-1900 required country of origin stamping. [From article linked above: “Country-of-origin labels arose in the 19th century, when Germany started to rise as an industrial power,” he said. “So a lot of European countries began imposing these country-of-origin label requirements because they wanted their people to be able to know if products were being imported from Germany,” VanGrasstek added. “This inspired people in the United States.”]
I would be interested if anyone can find a statute enacted by a foreign country which covered EXPORTS from America contemporaneous with the time this reel was made, which would have required such a mark.
So, Milam, a small town Kentucky reel maker, knew about some foreign, obscure “country of origin” marking requirement? If so, why haven’t we seen many more Kentucky reels with a USA country of origin marking from that same circa. 1890 time period? [I have seen later Kovalovsky, Talbot and some Heddon reels with “USA” or “Made in USA” markings.]
Subpart B—Articles Subject to Marking
§ 134.11Country of origin marking required.
Unless excepted by law, section 304, Tariff Act of 1930, as amended (19 U.S.C. 1304), requires that every article of foreign origin (or its container) imported into the United States shall be marked in a conspicuous place as legibly, indelibly, and permanently as the nature of the article (or container) will permit, in such manner as to indicate to an ultimate purchaser in the United States the English name of the country of origin of the article, at the time of importation into the Customs territory of the United States. Containers of articles excepted from marking shall be marked with the name of the country of origin of the article unless the container is also excepted from marking.
Last edited by Mike N on Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:57 pm, edited 7 times in total.
Mike N.
ORCA Founder, 1990
ORCA Founder, 1990
Re: B.C. Milam Reels Marked U.S.A.
After his overturned-carriage accident in 1863, Milam would always travel by rail or velocipede. He didn't forget.There should be some info out there to indicate whether or not he had a “Forget, Hell!” Bumper sticker on his carriage.
Steve Vernon
ORCA Honorary member
Book: ANTIQUE FISHING REELS, 2nd Ed.
Websites:
Antique Fishing Reels
Kopf reels
Hendrick reels
"Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose."
- Dustnstuff
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Re: B.C. Milam Reels Marked U.S.A.
I may be out of line, but which handle is the correct one ?
Seems there are two different ones.
Dustnstuff
Seems there are two different ones.
Dustnstuff
Re: B.C. Milam Reels Marked U.S.A.
Most Kentucky reels could be purchased with a counter-balanced handle OR a half-crank. From the old BC Milam catalogs, the balanced handle was typically an additional $1.00.Dustnstuff wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:14 am I may be out of line, but which handle is the correct one ?
Seems there are two different ones.
Dustnstuff
The handles on both Milam reels appear to be correct.
Mike N.
ORCA Founder, 1990
ORCA Founder, 1990
Re: B.C. Milam Reels Marked U.S.A.
We will probably never know. Maybe they were in a sporting goods store and were to be shipped overseas. Maybe the laws created enough paranoia that the owners felt they had to stamp U.S.A. on them before exporting them. We wish we knew. The fact that there are 2 of them makes it more convincing that it is a country of origin mark. Of course this is a guess but it seems better than believing someone would do this to such beautiful reels for no good reason.
Joined: 2007
Re: B.C. Milam Reels Marked U.S.A.
Mike N.
ORCA Founder, 1990
ORCA Founder, 1990
Re: B.C. Milam Reels Marked U.S.A.
The USA stamp on the Meek reel may well have been a country of origin stamp. My research indicates that the accepted abbreviation for the U.S. Army is AUS (Army of the United States), not USA.
Mike N.
ORCA Founder, 1990
ORCA Founder, 1990
Re: B.C. Milam Reels Marked U.S.A.
Hi, going back to Dustnstuff's question regarding the Milam handle with counterweight ....
True, while Milam did offer two styles of handles this handle does not look to be a Milam handle.
In my opinion the handle assembly is actually from a Pflueger reel.
It has the often seen guitar shaped section and the counterweight has the concentric circles as found on many of my
early German silver Pflueger reels such as the Worth , Norka and Beaver ( Pflueger..not Montague) models.
I believe Milam counterweights are often of the " watch battery" design with knurling on the edge and screw in the middle. My larger #6 has circles but they are high in relief.
Not unusual to find an original handle that has been replaced .....like the massed produced level wind reel I once found
with a great Talbot handle.
What do other Pflueger collectors think?
Thanks.
Bill Graves
Keysreels
True, while Milam did offer two styles of handles this handle does not look to be a Milam handle.
In my opinion the handle assembly is actually from a Pflueger reel.
It has the often seen guitar shaped section and the counterweight has the concentric circles as found on many of my
early German silver Pflueger reels such as the Worth , Norka and Beaver ( Pflueger..not Montague) models.
I believe Milam counterweights are often of the " watch battery" design with knurling on the edge and screw in the middle. My larger #6 has circles but they are high in relief.
Not unusual to find an original handle that has been replaced .....like the massed produced level wind reel I once found
with a great Talbot handle.
What do other Pflueger collectors think?
Thanks.
Bill Graves
Keysreels
Re: B.C. Milam Reels Marked U.S.A.
Bill,
That’s a great observation about the balanced grasp resembling one you posted from a Pflueger Worth. I agree that that the counterbalance weights on most Milams are usually secured by a small screw, but Ron’s great website page on Milams, reelsnlures.com, does show one with a non-screwed counterweight (below) and I’ve seen others, too. The concentric circles do favor your observation, though.
And here’s one from Ed’s website, antiquefishingreels.com, of a non-screw counterbalance weight from a Milam Rustic, albeit also without the concentric circles.
That’s a great observation about the balanced grasp resembling one you posted from a Pflueger Worth. I agree that that the counterbalance weights on most Milams are usually secured by a small screw, but Ron’s great website page on Milams, reelsnlures.com, does show one with a non-screwed counterweight (below) and I’ve seen others, too. The concentric circles do favor your observation, though.
And here’s one from Ed’s website, antiquefishingreels.com, of a non-screw counterbalance weight from a Milam Rustic, albeit also without the concentric circles.
Mike N.
ORCA Founder, 1990
ORCA Founder, 1990
- leland99
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Re: B.C. Milam Reels Marked U.S.A.
Thank you, everyone, for the insightful discussions.
I have another thought: The USA stamping is likely "country of origin", perhaps for branding purposes and less about legal requirements. Quality reel makers including Meek, Milam, and Talbot had customers outside of the USA. Although this reel is circa 1883 to 1890's, perhaps some were stamped USA for use as demonstration/exhibit models. BC Milam & Sons won several award medals at expositions/world fairs between 1893 and 1904, including expositions in Bergen, Norway and Paris, France. These expositions and fairs were quite the rage in the late 19th century and were hosted by many countries, including the timeframe this reel was produced. While I have not seen catalogs from pre-1900, you can observe page 1 in catalogs from early 1900's for Meek, Milam & Sons and Talbot all show City, State, USA. For these reel makers with an international customer base, it's reasonable and easy to have USA included as part of their catalog address, and as we can see with this particular reel, it's not so easy to apply the actual USA stamping to the reel. The USA stamping thus had limited usage "as needed" rather than "as required".
With regard to the reel handle...when I got this reel the whole handle assembly was a mess. I sent the reel to John Elder to come up with a replacement handle screw and screw color (thanks John!). The handle is likely not original to the reel, and after seeing some of the discussion on this thread, I looked at additional images. The BC Milam counterbalanced handle typically is a dog-leg style handle and not a sweeping curve style handle as currently on this reel. If someone wants to send me a period-correct dog-leg style BC Milam handle, I could go for that!
Please keep the comments coming!
I have another thought: The USA stamping is likely "country of origin", perhaps for branding purposes and less about legal requirements. Quality reel makers including Meek, Milam, and Talbot had customers outside of the USA. Although this reel is circa 1883 to 1890's, perhaps some were stamped USA for use as demonstration/exhibit models. BC Milam & Sons won several award medals at expositions/world fairs between 1893 and 1904, including expositions in Bergen, Norway and Paris, France. These expositions and fairs were quite the rage in the late 19th century and were hosted by many countries, including the timeframe this reel was produced. While I have not seen catalogs from pre-1900, you can observe page 1 in catalogs from early 1900's for Meek, Milam & Sons and Talbot all show City, State, USA. For these reel makers with an international customer base, it's reasonable and easy to have USA included as part of their catalog address, and as we can see with this particular reel, it's not so easy to apply the actual USA stamping to the reel. The USA stamping thus had limited usage "as needed" rather than "as required".
With regard to the reel handle...when I got this reel the whole handle assembly was a mess. I sent the reel to John Elder to come up with a replacement handle screw and screw color (thanks John!). The handle is likely not original to the reel, and after seeing some of the discussion on this thread, I looked at additional images. The BC Milam counterbalanced handle typically is a dog-leg style handle and not a sweeping curve style handle as currently on this reel. If someone wants to send me a period-correct dog-leg style BC Milam handle, I could go for that!
Please keep the comments coming!
Bryce Tawney
The Reel Packrat
Packing these reels into my nest hole: Talbot, Milam, Meek, Horton, Heddon, Wm Shakespeare Jr, and small diameter skeleton fly reels!
The Reel Packrat
Packing these reels into my nest hole: Talbot, Milam, Meek, Horton, Heddon, Wm Shakespeare Jr, and small diameter skeleton fly reels!