204ft cast using "regular tackle"?!

[Paul Roberts]

I'm wondering what "regular tackle" means here? The current ACA rules allow: "Revolving Spool Reel of standard manufacture of at least one hundred (100) units –otherwise unrestricted." This leaves a lot of room for modification. I wonder what modifications were allowed or done in 1940? LW removed, lapped gears, oil viscosities? Also what type of casting "plug" would have been used then. For me, an aerodynamic bank sinker casts like a bullet, with line drag in the air becoming the greater factor.

All my serviced (internally polished) old direct-drive reels hit around the 100-120ft mark (3/8oz practice plugs). My "UL" old reels can match that with 1/4oz. I haven't tried much heavier plugs but can't imagine getting anywhere near 200ft. Unless perhaps I had a heck of a tailwind. It appears, to me, that air resistance -line drag- is possibly the biggest factor. Now... a 5/8oz bank sinker on an extra-long two-handed rod might get me closer. But 200ft with "regular tackle"? Is this correct?

[Richard Lodge]

And the caption says that was an "average," which means he could have cast more and less than 204 feet, 7 inches. I think he had a hummingbird attached to the line.

[Steve]

Jenkins was a carpenter who worked with his father. His father lived down the street from us in Narberth, where I lived during the '40s. Ernie was a member of the Lower Merion Rod & Gun Club and was one of the top three 5/8oz. casters for both distance and accuracy in a lot of contests. In 1940, he won Class C1 surf casting distance (258 ft.), Class C1 average (230 ft), and Class A1 plug casting accuracy (91) in a Middle Atlantic Association of Casting Clubs annual tournament in Philly. In 1941, he placed 3rd in Class B plug distance and 2nd in Class A fly accuracy in the MAACC annual tournament. In 1945, he came in 2nd in Class A plug casting to Mrs. Ellen Dietrich, in the Lower Merion R & G Club casting tournament, held at the Narberth Park where I learned to play baseball. (Was his loss an act of chivalry? We'll never know.) The photo below shows Mrs. Dietrich at a 1943 tournament, where Jenkins placed 2nd in a Plug Novelty Contest, whatever that meant.

BTW, many of the 5/8 oz. distance casts in these tournaments were 175 ft. and much longer.

P.S. I think the bridge in the Jenkins photo is the Penna. Railroad bridge over the Schuylkill River in Philly.

[Paul Roberts]

Steve, that's quite a coincidence that Jenkins was from your one time home town! Thanks for the history. Fun stuff.

BTW, many of the 5/8 oz. distance casts in these tournaments were 175 ft. and much longer.

Must be due to technical modifications. Or, just as likely, there are things about baitcasting that I haven't fathomed yet!

[Steve]

Must be due to technical modifications.

Try degaussing your brake.

[Paul Roberts]

Ah! Magic! I suspected as much!

Some things that would enhance distance performance? Narrow spools, small balanced handles, NLW, and possibly more viscous oils to reduce my heavy thumb? I guess “tournament reels” fall into the “regular tackle” category. Perhaps my reels, and casting, are not lacking all that much? I believe the longest Skish targets are 80ft. That, any and all of my “standard” DD levelwinds can do.

[kyreels]

I have an upcoming book titled "Tournament Casting Tackle History" in collaboration with Colby Sorrells. I think you pose some interesting questions, some of which drove us to write the book. In examine and describing all the innovations in tournament casting tackle and the event rules that drove the changes, we can answer some of your questions.

The standard Dipsi or bait casting lead sinkers were not used past 1900 for any tournaments, except in special surf events. The associations all prescribed the official weights to be used. The NAACC would have been the governing body in 1940 and the official weights used in distance would be the metal capped wood and weighted plugs, which varied each year. Distance events were primarily 5/8 and 3/8, although in 1940 due to wartime metal shortages they changed to Tenite plugs for accuracy events. The 5/8 distance remained in the metal-capped wood plugs.


There were many different distance casting events by weight and reel type. The "revolving spool" events could be unrestricted tackle or skish events requiring standard tackle. Everyone had to use the same plug, but in unrestricted events the line and reel could be anything. This drove the distance events to extremely thin lines, thin spools, and all kinds of other reel innovations. For Skish distance (and accuracy), you had to use standard unmodified reels, standard line (like the 9 lb tournament silk line) and unrestricted rods. "Reels shall be of standard manufacture and equipped with a level-winding device in working order. Arbors could be added, but no alternations of any nature whatsoever shall be permitted"

Even though the Skish reels must be standard level-wind, often the competitors looked for an edge with hollowed out gears, aluminum spools, special oils, arbors, and a variety of performance enhancing methods. It was up to the tournament weigh-master to officiate and approve any Skish equipment. A Shakespeare Professional Sportcast 1980 Mod GK could have been used in 1941. Any level-wind reel of the period might be used.

It would be interesting to try to list reels available in the 1940-1942 prewar period that might fit this bill. Most of the best Skish reels came out post war, and used the lighter weight frames and spools we would have preferred. I would think most of these reels would be capable of 200 ft casts with 5/8 weights and 9 lb line when carefully tuned.

[Paul Roberts]

Thanks so much, Matt. I've been trying to get a bead on how successful my attempts at refurbishing old DD reels actually are. Mine will be used for fishing, and I don't need 200ft casts. But, can an off-the-shelf reel throw 175+feet. Sounds like they could, in the right hands/thumbs? So far, mine won't, or... I can't.

[kyreels]

One of the interesting things about tournament casting is that a good tournament reel does not make a good fishing reel. Often if one of the good Skish reels is used for fishing, the gears bind up under a fish-on situation. So the idea of Skish to encourage regular folks to cast with fishing tackle really only went so far. Tournament casting could improve your fishing ability, but you generally had to use different equipment, despite the best efforts of the association.

I think you are probably getting the most out of your factory reels, knowing how carefully you clean and restore. For long casts, you need low inertia spools and arbors. From my experience fooling with lubricants, a small amount of synthetic oil makes for the longer and smoother casts. I think there are probably lost secrets in how the bearings were adjusted on different reel models that factor into things. Short of shaving down the weight of internal gears, not much after that would increase the cast length.

I also wonder about the variation in reels regarding the level winds. Some reels had a separate gear for the level wind, others used the same drive gear for the level wind. I wonder which type casts further.

[Paul Roberts]

Thanks, Matt. I have one Shakespeare "Direct Drive" model, a 1973D, with the LW directly affixed to the handle and drive gear. That model was apparently a favorite of tournament casters. (I did try to fish with it however it had a habit of taking line in behind the spool too easily. Bill Sonnett had noted the same thing at one point.)

Congrats on the upcoming book!

[colby sorrells]

I didn't want to jump in this discussion until Matt had a chance. Just a few things to consider.

The last caster who used "standard or fisherman equipment" in the distance game, at the National level, was Lee Sens. He won the 3/8 ounce Distance Event in 1937 with a long cast of 309 feet. He won the 5/8 ounce distance event for 396 feet. He used " a conventional, wide-spool reel and not a narrow spool, modified, distance reel". BUT Sens was also a mechanical engineer and had knowledge about "application of oil to reels allowed him to control spool inertia." He also "had expertise in textiles which helped in selection, treatment and care of casting line." So even Lee Sens "modified" his tackle.

The other caster who used "standard equipment" was Barney Berlinger of PA. He was a contemporary of Ernest Jenkins. He used one of his own Castomatic reels (ORCA Reel News Jan 2017, p 17) to win many tournaments including winning the 5/8 Fisherman's Distance event with a cast of 244 feet.

Both of the guys were excellent athletes.

There was often a discussion about "did tournament casting help the fisherman"? There is no doubt it does. Earl Osten covered this in his book Tournament Fly & Bait Casting. I can tell you without a doubt learning things like using different oils, using a tournament caster's cast, the difference a rod can make, and cleaning and maintaining your reel in top shape, all pay off when fishing, especially if distance is important. In many practical fishing applications distance is not that important (fishing the wonderful Elkhorn Creek in KY where this all started!) distance does not play much of a role and was the reason these wonderful reels we all collect were made the way they were in the beginning and even today.

Keepin' It Fun!

Colby

[Paul Roberts]

Thanks, Colby. Those are amazing -seemingly impossible- distances, apparently with the technology of the day taken to the Nth degree. However, in my mind, Sens reel would have to be dismantled and inspected before believing it was "standard fisherman's equipment". I'm guessing his equipment would have been scrutinized at such an event. Amazing! I'll let you all know how I make out. But I'll wait for a day with a mighty stiff wind at my back!

No doubt that casting technology, know how, ability, and practice would aid in fishing. A reel and caster that can perform at distance is at great advantage at any range, in terms of ease of performing difficult (esp low trajectory) and controlled casts. It took me some time to even attempt skipping with modern magnetic baitcasting gear. Now I want to do it comfortably with my DD reels.

[Bill Sonnett]

For many years I attended the Missouri Old Time Fishing Tournament. Afrer a half day of bass fishing with all pre-1940 tackle, a casting tournament (both distance and accuracy) was held with the same equipment that each contestant fished with. Rods were mostly steel with an occasional bamboo. For several years the distance event was won by the same contestant using a standard spool Coxe 25 on a stiff bamboo rod. In later years a Shakespeare Marhoff won several times. I vividly recall one year when a former winner using a Marhoff came in second only because he had filled his reel with a standard 50 yard spool of line and on two of his three casts he ran all the line off the reel limiting his cast to 150 feet.

[Paul Roberts]

Thanks, Bill. Looks like I have more practice ahead of me. Although I've been using 3/8oz as my standard. Guess I'll try 5/8 and see what I can get.

[oc1]

It's weird how a 3/8 ounce purpose-built casting plug will cast farther than a 3/8 ounce lead weight. It must have something to do with having just the right combination of inertia and air resistance to make it manageable.

[Paul Roberts]

It's weird how a 3/8 ounce purpose-built casting plug will cast farther than a 3/8 ounce lead weight. It must have something to do with having just the right combination of inertia and air resistance to make it manageable.

I haven't done the math, but it seems that a tiny lead bank sinker casts like bullet. It’s even shaped like a casting plug, comparatively tiny. I went to casting plugs to better mimic the air resistance of actual lures. I’ve used hookless lures too. I've got inexpensive plastic casting plugs. Perhaps others are better balanced and more aerodynamic? I can see the proper tail acting like a stabilizer.

[kyreels]

The ACA made special plastic distance casting weights that were 5/8 oz, but in the smaller shape of the 3/8 weights. At the top of the competition with the few casters that really were good, it made a difference. However, for many years, the top distance weight was an aluminum plug in 1/2 oz, or later 5/8 oz. You should try those for distance. They outcast lead weights by far and are visible as well.

Early NASAC Aluminum weights

Abu ICF weights in various sizes

What I have not seen mentioned in this thread is that in the unrestricted distance event, virtually 100% of the reels involved are freespool. In the fisherman's distance or skish distance, many of the top finishers used freespool reels. Since the rules did not preclude that, if you had a freespool reel with a level wind, you had an edge.

The Cincinnatti ACA club had their tournament last weekend. The overall accuracy was won by ORCA member David Roberts. He used a freespool modified Meek reel. However, the overwhelming most popular reel for accuracy at the event was the Shakespeare Sportcast 1973 Mod FK Green. Still my preferred reel. Not freespool of course.

ORCA deceased member Bill Burke used to modify Langley Lurecast and Shakespeare 1973's to freespool. I don't know if these were allowed in Shish or Fisherman's distance. It may have been a local decision.

[Paul Roberts]

Thanks, Matt. Lotsa variables to play with: casting plug, casting skill, reel configs, NLW, FS, ... . Maybe too many. Again, my intent is for fishing. But I would like to get a bead on how well the extra servicing efforts on my stock reels actually pan out to performance. Would like to know if any of my stock DD reels are capable of breaking 150ft. Perhaps an aluminum bullet is worth a go. I did try a 5/8oz plastic casting plug, with a cork arbored Supreme, and 0.011" PE braid (thicker than a 20# braid should be -what I get for buying cheap braid), and hit 130feet; Long way to go yet. Guess I'll keep plugging away at it.

I have yet to measure out my freespool reels: a couple Coxe 25's and an 1895 Akron. The FS Akron I'd already done some preliminary testing and found, at the time, that the push-button FS did not seem to add appreciable distance compared with running the same reel in DD. Too many moving parts and not enough "free" I'd guessed. Only the handle disengages when in FS. I suppose every tweak helps though.

I also have a Shakes' 1973D and I do see those too are favorites for accuracy/Skish competitions. But, this reel's knack for letting line pass behind the spool precludes it for use in my fishing. I tried braids up to a 'fused' 0.010" (14lb Fireline) and still she could eat line.

[Paul Roberts]

OK... I broke 150ft.

Pflueger 1894L (1941 w/30's tail plate -prob from factory). VGC, quiet 'turbine whine' caster. Only mods were buffed/polished metal-to-metal contact areas via Dremel and Flitz, and a 1-1/8" dia. cork arbor. 5/8oz plastic casting plug (actually a bit light at 0.58oz). Line was a bit heavy. It was supposed to be a 20# PE braid (.0095") but this discount brand has turned out to be inconsistent in labeling. Today's "20#" mic'd at .011" -probably a 30# braid. Rod was a 6'6" CTS glass M power (butt and some tip cut back from 7ft -still a bit too much tip left on it).

Rig easily threw a consistent 140ft. A bit more oomph (load and acceleration) got me over the 150ft mark. Longest was 159ft. Some more thumbing practice, lighter line, perhaps a better casting plug, would probably get me to 175? I'd need a good tailwind to hit 200 I think.

[kyreels]

Keep at it Paul. I think it is interesting. We always hold a casting tournament at the NFLCC and ORCA Nationals. I would love to add a Skish distance 5/8 event. We could do that at some venues.

Deceased ORCA member and former champion ACA caster Billy Peters used a Cox 25C in Skish Distance. He said to make sure the level wind was oiled well. I know he cast over 200 ft with that, but not sure without digging more. I suggest you try that if you are serious. I think if I was casting that event, I might start with that reel or the 25N.

I was looking at my Pflueger Supreme 1577 Free Spool Narrow Spool made in 1964. I would like to try that in distance.

[bassmagnum]

This is a really interesting thread and very well written by all as I'm able to actually visualize the casting tournaments and even night fishing with old surface plugs. From all the older baitcasting reels I've encountered I've never seen one where I thought to myself "This thing can cast". Apparently, I hadn't come across the right one until going through my storage unit I found a Pfluger 1893B {Not sure about the B but it's stamped on the bottom of its base} on an octagonal steel Gep Rod. Man can that spool spin! Now I'm tempted to put line on it and give it a go. Probably going to have to use another rod to play with it since the Gep rod only has 1 guide and the tip
Ross

[Paul Roberts]

Hi, Ross.
I'm no expert, but I've found that ALL of the 50-odd direct drive casting reels I've serviced to date can cast, nearly as well as modern reels. Surprised the heck out of me! The challenges in fishing with them have less to do with casting than other things that make modern reels more efficient and simply easier to work with. I have an article coming out in the next (July '24) issue of The Reel News on how I go about bringing reels up to snuff for fishing. I may not be able to hit 200ft with them -yet- but that may be entirely my fault. I can say that every one of my old reels can cast 100ft or more. Plenty to effectively fish with, which is my main interest in these beautiful old reels. I can see that, if I wanted to work at it, I could probably get darn close to 200ft. I hit 165 just yesterday.

EDIT: I should have said: "Every one of my keeper reels (40 of them presently) can cast 100ft. I, of course, had some culls that didn't make the cut due to excessive wear/damage. In other words, pick a good quality DD model in good condition and do the work. It'll cast.

[Bill Sonnett]

Distance casting with standard baitcasting reels.

I have given some thought to this subject and have decided to chime in. I should have noted in my prior comment that all distance winners at the Missouri Old Time Tackle Tournament used standard-width spooled reels. I myself do most of my fishing these days with a Coxe 25N and a Langley Plugcast, both narrow spool reels. Using a ⅜ oz lure the initial inertia is lighter and enables me to cast with greater ease than with a heavier standard-width spool. However, I have found that for achieving maximum distance with a ⅝ oz weight the standard width spool wins. As Colbey mentioned, Bill Peters set his distance record with a standard Coxe 25C.
Leaving aside the entirely different principals involved in unlimited class distance casting where “angel hair” line is used and the viscosity of the oil used functions as an anti-backlash device, the greatest distance involved in standard baitcasting is achieved on the perfect cast when the rotation of the spool exactly equals the speed at which the weight at the end of the line is moving. The spool is shooting off the line at the same speed hence there is no drag on the casting plug trying to turn the spool. The other factor besides a heavier spool being able to preserve the inertia longer is that a narrow spool loses its outside diameter faster than a standard spool. The outside diameter of a filled spool gets smaller for every foot of line removed during the cast thus trying to force the spool to turn faster as the cast progresses. This of course is impossible and the drag on the line increases finally ending the cast. If you have ever snapped a casting weight off during a cast I am sure you have noted the incredible distance the weight travels when untethered. The lighter narrow spool loses momentum faster, as well as diameter and the drag on the cast increases at a faster rate as the cast is in progress. This makes for pleasant fishing but difficulty in achieving maximum distance if that is your goal. I might note as a matter of interest that a former member of Shakespeare’s casting team told me that when it came to distance casting they achieved their greatest success by removing the levelwind from a standard Shakespeare Marhoff reel.

Some years ago during the distance competition, Henry Norris had his braided nylon line part when the cast was well underway. What we in the bullpen saw was a beautiful cast the line glistening in the sun as the weight traveled at least 75 feet past the longest casts of the day. We did not realize that the weight was sailing through the air with approximately 80 feet of line no longer connected to a reel. The group was aw-struck until the truth came out. I told Henry he should have walked out toward the weight all the while turning the handle on his reel thus preserving for a short while the conviction in the bystander's minds that they had just witnessed the cast of a lifetime LOL.

[Paul Roberts]

Bill, you have away of typing a story that hits me square in the funny bone.

I still remember the gunsmith spending 20 out of his forty years as a 'smith on his knees looking for dropped parts. I still get a full belly laugh at that thought.

Thanks for chiming in too. Interesting, and helpful, thoughts on spools.

[bassmagnum]

Good evening, Paul and Bill
Paul, I really think that with the right line on the right rod and that 1893 could easily go 100'. Your last reply was enough to push me over the edge to give it a try. I'll let you know how I do.

Bill, could the use of heaver viscosities of oil be part of the reason some of those older reels are so gummed up? Seems to be the reason a lot of reels have problems. I have been using a Water Pik with its reservoir filled with hot water and a good dose of Dawn detergent and it does a great job of blasting it out of there. I do put some Dawn on the gummed-up areas first and let it work full strength a few minutes first. I enjoy your stories
Thanks to both of you
Ross