Shakespeare Model Numbers - Why change it if there's no design change?

ORCA Online Forum - Feel free to talk or ask about ALL kinds of old tackle here, with an emphasis on old reels!
Post Reply
Terry Battisti
Advanced Board Poster
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2023 11:12 am
Location: Oak Ridge, TN
Contact:

Shakespeare Model Numbers - Why change it if there's no design change?

Post by Terry Battisti »

Hi Everyone,

Okay, my education continues. From a post a couple weeks ago, you might know that I acquired a Shakespeare 1740 Model HE (1936 model) Tournament Free Spool reel. The reel was delivered, I cleaned it and reassembled it and was duly impressed with nearly everything about the reel. My goal at that point was to acquire a 1740 Model FK (1951 model) to see what improvements were made.

Well, one came available and I got it along with another 1740 HE.

As I do with all of my new acquisitions, I tore the reels down to clean them, and in this case I tore both reels down to see what the difference was between the two Models. I mean there "has" to be some sort of difference or why would they change the Model Number, right?

After I got the two reels cleaned up, I layed the parts side by side to compare. See below.



The Model FK is on the left side of the image.

Comparing the two Models, there are only two differences I see between these two reels. 1) is that the writing on the FK is on the head plate, where the writing on the HE is on the tail plate. 2) the handle nut on the HE is machined for a flathead screwdriver. Other than those two menial changes, there is no difference.

To me they are the same exact reel. Why the Model Number change?

Now, regarding what I don't like about this reel. I hate that Shakespeare placed a spacer bar at the 12-o'clock position. This is a tiny reel and the distance between the rear spacer bar and the upper spacer bar leaves no room for my thumb. If I had designed this reel, I would have placed the upper spacer bar at least at the 1-o'clock position to allow for us fat-thumbed casters to have more access to the spool. Just my $0.02.

Thanks for any thoughts or comments.
____________________________________

Terry Battisti
www.bass-archives.com
mark bumgarner
Advanced Board Poster
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:45 pm
Location: Jacksonville, Illinois

Re: Shakespeare Model Numbers - Why change it if there's no design change?

Post by mark bumgarner »

I thought the letters were just date codes but discovered they are actually part of the model number so yes must have been a very minor change. Learn something every day.
Last edited by mark bumgarner on Sat Jan 11, 2025 6:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Terry Battisti
Advanced Board Poster
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2023 11:12 am
Location: Oak Ridge, TN
Contact:

Re: Shakespeare Model Numbers - Why change it if there's no design change?

Post by Terry Battisti »

Hi Mark,

I have read on here that the "model #" HE, FK, etc, marks a new version of the same reel. So, in this instance the 1740 Model HE was made from 1936 to 1951 and in 1951 was changed to the 1740 FK because some change would have been implemented to the reel.

For example, the Shakespeare 1973 Sportcast Model GA and GE follow this. The GA didn't have a removable worm gear where the GE does.
____________________________________

Terry Battisti
www.bass-archives.com
mark bumgarner
Advanced Board Poster
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:45 pm
Location: Jacksonville, Illinois

Re: Shakespeare Model Numbers - Why change it if there's no design change?

Post by mark bumgarner »

Yes I caught my mistake and edited my first reply to remove my uneducated comment.
Terry Battisti
Advanced Board Poster
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2023 11:12 am
Location: Oak Ridge, TN
Contact:

Re: Shakespeare Model Numbers - Why change it if there's no design change?

Post by Terry Battisti »

No worries Mark!
____________________________________

Terry Battisti
www.bass-archives.com
User avatar
Eric J
Advanced Board Poster
Posts: 364
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: Shakespeare Model Numbers - Why change it if there's no design change?

Post by Eric J »

Just curious if the HE has the tiny alphabetical stamp on the reel foot rivets? You might need a magnifier to see them. Maybe the FK does also?
Terry Battisti
Advanced Board Poster
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2023 11:12 am
Location: Oak Ridge, TN
Contact:

Re: Shakespeare Model Numbers - Why change it if there's no design change?

Post by Terry Battisti »

Eric J wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 9:27 pm Just curious if the HE has the tiny alphabetical stamp on the reel foot rivets? You might need a magnifier to see them. Maybe the FK does also?
Hi Eric, I just looked through my camera at the rivets and there are no markings on them at all. They are polished smooth. I had no idea Shakespeare stamped the rivets. Did they do this with all their reels?
____________________________________

Terry Battisti
www.bass-archives.com
User avatar
kyreels
Super Board Poster
Posts: 1361
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:12 pm
Location: Louisville, Kentucky

Re: Shakespeare Model Numbers - Why change it if there's no design change?

Post by kyreels »

Terry,

Eric wrote the definitive article on dating Shakespeare, which appears in the Nov 2022 issue of Reel News. It is in the ORCA Reel News Library. I thought there was a shorter version on this board, but I could not find the topic. Some of the discussion is in the thread here viewtopic.php?t=20562
Matt Wickham
Collector of Casting Weights, KY Reels and KY Tackle
mark bumgarner
Advanced Board Poster
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:45 pm
Location: Jacksonville, Illinois

Re: Shakespeare Model Numbers - Why change it if there's no design change?

Post by mark bumgarner »

Terry,
The 51 catalog listing mentions no changes to the 1740 reel. It does say " 1740 Free Spool Tournament Reel Returns" making 1951 the first year of post war production, since 41 I believe. The 51 catalog listing, which I have attached, does show a slotted handle nut in the photo. Did they just change the date code because the reel had been out of production for 10 years? Is there a change in metals used? Was the relocation of the stamping enough to justify? RABBIT HOLE!
Terry Battisti
Advanced Board Poster
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2023 11:12 am
Location: Oak Ridge, TN
Contact:

Re: Shakespeare Model Numbers - Why change it if there's no design change?

Post by Terry Battisti »

Awesome Mark! I bet "all of the above" is why they gave it the new Model #, especially since the reel was discontinued in 1941. So, now the question I have is were there fewer HEs produced than FKs and how much longer did they produce the FK version? It pays to have the catalogs.

Thank you sir!
____________________________________

Terry Battisti
www.bass-archives.com
mark bumgarner
Advanced Board Poster
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:45 pm
Location: Jacksonville, Illinois

Re: Shakespeare Model Numbers - Why change it if there's no design change?

Post by mark bumgarner »

The catalogs are available in the ORCA Member Library. BTW have been enjoying bass-archives.com!
User avatar
Eric J
Advanced Board Poster
Posts: 364
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: Shakespeare Model Numbers - Why change it if there's no design change?

Post by Eric J »

Thanks for the kind words about my article Matt, but I’m reluctant to call anything definitive in regards to Shakespeare. I think my hypothesis is a good one though until some other evidence is found.
Terry, according to my research and discovery of those tiny rivet stamps, if your 1744 HE has no rivet letters it was made in 1936 or whenever the next design change was made. One 1744 in my collection is an HE with a rivet stamp of G which dates it to 1940. If you don’t have access to the article, let me know and I’ll email the .pdf to you.
mark bumgarner
Advanced Board Poster
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:45 pm
Location: Jacksonville, Illinois

Re: Shakespeare Model Numbers - Why change it if there's no design change?

Post by mark bumgarner »

Went back in my Reel News and read the article Eric submitted, very informative, and scientific in approach. Seems odd to me that they held this reel out of production so long after the war. It may not of had the sales numbers but it sure did have great advertising appeal with all the tournament wins.
Terry Battisti
Advanced Board Poster
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2023 11:12 am
Location: Oak Ridge, TN
Contact:

Re: Shakespeare Model Numbers - Why change it if there's no design change?

Post by Terry Battisti »

Eric J wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2025 8:34 am Terry, according to my research and discovery of those tiny rivet stamps, if your 1744 HE has no rivet letters it was made in 1936 or whenever the next design change was made. One 1744 in my collection is an HE with a rivet stamp of G which dates it to 1940. If you don’t have access to the article, let me know and I’ll email the .pdf to you.
Eric, Hmmm.. I don't know if this makes a difference or not but my reels are 1740s, not 1744s. I have two 1740 HE and one 1740 FK. None of them have the stamp on the rivet. When I get home later tonight I will take a picture of the rivets and post it here. I find it highly unlikely I have two reels made in the same year (without a stamp). As for the 1740 FK, should it have a stamp on the rivet too? Because it doesn't either.

I don't have that issue of the Reel News with your article in it. Please send me the pdf version! I'd love to read it! Thanks for the help guys!
____________________________________

Terry Battisti
www.bass-archives.com
Terry Battisti
Advanced Board Poster
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2023 11:12 am
Location: Oak Ridge, TN
Contact:

Re: Shakespeare Model Numbers - Why change it if there's no design change?

Post by Terry Battisti »

mark bumgarner wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2025 9:37 pm BTW have been enjoying bass-archives.com!
Thank you Mark!!!
____________________________________

Terry Battisti
www.bass-archives.com
User avatar
kyreels
Super Board Poster
Posts: 1361
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:12 pm
Location: Louisville, Kentucky

Re: Shakespeare Model Numbers - Why change it if there's no design change?

Post by kyreels »

The catalogs do not tell the full story. In my book, Tournament Casting Tackle, I state that the 1740 was discontinued by 1957. I based that on the ACA publications of the time that said they continued through 1956. The club shop purchased a lot of these, and you could still buy a new one from them for some years.
ACA Creel Dec-Jan 1949 v4 n8 – Shakespeare informed NAACC that they had discontinued the 1740 reel and the only way to reverse that would be if the NAACC would take the entire production run. NAACC declined to do so. Shakespeare stopped production but then restarted in 1951 and continued to the 1956 season. (Creel Oct-Dec 1950 v4 n12)
Matt Wickham
Collector of Casting Weights, KY Reels and KY Tackle
User avatar
Eric J
Advanced Board Poster
Posts: 364
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: Shakespeare Model Numbers - Why change it if there's no design change?

Post by Eric J »

There are actually a lot of reels with no rivet stamps so I’m not at all surprised you have two without. I look at eBay photos and see an equal number of stamped vs stamped.
Terry Battisti
Advanced Board Poster
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2023 11:12 am
Location: Oak Ridge, TN
Contact:

Re: Shakespeare Model Numbers - Why change it if there's no design change?

Post by Terry Battisti »

Okay, I went ahead and relooked at the reel foot rivets on my three 1740s. First I want to appoligize for the blurry images. It's tough taking a picture at this zoom without a tripod. But, I think the images are good enough for what we're doing here.

Upon relooking at the reels, there appears to be a "G" on one of my 1740 HEs. The picture is below.



The next image below is the second 1740 HE I have and there appears to be no stamped letter on either rivet.



This last image is of my 1740 FK. Again, there appears to be no stamped letter on either rivet.



If you see something I don't and want another image taken, let me know and I'll try to take another picture.

Also, I'd love to read that article of yours Eric. [email using Contact icon on right sidebar - ed]

Thanks again for the education!
Last edited by kyreels on Wed Jan 15, 2025 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Remove email address
____________________________________

Terry Battisti
www.bass-archives.com
User avatar
Eric J
Advanced Board Poster
Posts: 364
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: Shakespeare Model Numbers - Why change it if there's no design change?

Post by Eric J »

Good photos Terry. According to my theory, your HE (1936) + G(4) =1940 which is great because it doesn’t place it as being made during the war years and messing up my theory 😃.
I’m out of town right now but will be back home to my laptop on Monday and will send you the pdf on Monday night.
Eric
Terry Battisti
Advanced Board Poster
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2023 11:12 am
Location: Oak Ridge, TN
Contact:

Re: Shakespeare Model Numbers - Why change it if there's no design change?

Post by Terry Battisti »

Eric J wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2025 3:03 pm Good photos Terry. According to my theory, your HE (1936) + G(4) =1940 which is great because it doesn’t place it as being made during the war years and messing up my theory 😃.
I’m out of town right now but will be back home to my laptop on Monday and will send you the pdf on Monday night.
Eric
LOL. I'm glad to be of service and help you with your theory Eric! And thank you for sending the pdf! I can't wait to read it!
____________________________________

Terry Battisti
www.bass-archives.com
User avatar
kyreels
Super Board Poster
Posts: 1361
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:12 pm
Location: Louisville, Kentucky

Re: Shakespeare Model Numbers - Why change it if there's no design change?

Post by kyreels »

Terry,

You are a member of ORCA. All the Reel News are online in the Members Only area. Are you having problems accessing that?
Matt Wickham
Collector of Casting Weights, KY Reels and KY Tackle
colby sorrells
Super Board Poster
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:15 am

Re: Shakespeare Model Numbers - Why change it if there's no design change?

Post by colby sorrells »

Got to think batch production not assembly line production. Once the batch was sold they would have to create a new batch. A batch would have been a certain number of units to make them potentially profitable. A batch could have been a gross, 144, or something larger to make it worth their while financially to make any.

Assembly line would have been continuous over lengthy time.

The batch would be represented by not only the model, in this case 1740, but also the Model number, like HE AND the batch marked on the foot. This would allow the number, 1740, to be made over several years by using the model info, HE. Then when that batch ran out, which could have been a number of years, a new batch was made. The Model HE didn't change they just made a new batch.

Batch vs. continuous assembly line.

Keepin' It Fun!

Colby
Terry Battisti
Advanced Board Poster
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2023 11:12 am
Location: Oak Ridge, TN
Contact:

Re: Shakespeare Model Numbers - Why change it if there's no design change?

Post by Terry Battisti »

Matt, Bill Sonnett told me that a couple days ago. LOL. I didn't realize that until he said something. :-)
____________________________________

Terry Battisti
www.bass-archives.com
Post Reply