I am carting about a half dozen pre-1910 Shakespeare Standard Reels to OHIO tomorrow and realize I am not sure on a couple points:
1. When did they shift from Pat Pend to Patented?
2. When did they transition from slotted screws, to slotted/stamped screws, to no apparent screws? (I have examples of all three)
3. When did they transition from the "number, letter" (e.g. No. 2L 80 Yrd Quad) to just the number (e.g. No.2 80 Yrd Quad) to just the reel name (with yards stamped under the foot) ?
4. When did the Take Apart posts go from the 'checker board' grip pattern to the 'parallel groove' pattern?
I'd appreciate any guesses and sorry for the late notice!
Len
Shakespeare Jr. pre-Patent & pre-1910 dating
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Len Sawisch
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give me an address
Len:
Tell me where the show is again. I want to go. Seems like its only an hour from Bronson.
Dave
Tell me where the show is again. I want to go. Seems like its only an hour from Bronson.
Dave
Len:
As you know, there hasn't been much written about Shakespeares. Perhaps we can remedy that at some point in the next few years. Your questions would make a great subject for an article. Obviously, it would require reference to the catalogs, and I'm not certain if the pictures in the early catalogs show enough detail to provide the answers.
As a partial response to one of your questions, I have a Standard marked at the top of the tail plate as follows: "Standard Reel No. 3M"
At the bottom, it is marked "patented nov 12, 1901" and below that, "patents applied for". There is no mention of yardage on the reel
anywhere. The Take Apart posts are neither 'checker board' pattern or 'parallel groove' pattern. They are smooth.
I have another reel marked at the top of the tail plate, "Standard Reel No 2M". At the bottom, it is marked, "patents applied for". No mention of yardage anywhere. The take apart posts are smooth.
Based upon the above, I think the 2nd reel I described dates to around 1899 or 1900. And the the 1st reel I described dates around 1901 or 1902.
But my point would be that the "earliest" Standards had no yardage marks on them. And the takapart bars were smooth.
And unless we have exceptions to my observations (and that could easily be the case), it would follow that reels marked with yardage would fall into the post-1902 era.
As you know, there hasn't been much written about Shakespeares. Perhaps we can remedy that at some point in the next few years. Your questions would make a great subject for an article. Obviously, it would require reference to the catalogs, and I'm not certain if the pictures in the early catalogs show enough detail to provide the answers.
As a partial response to one of your questions, I have a Standard marked at the top of the tail plate as follows: "Standard Reel No. 3M"
At the bottom, it is marked "patented nov 12, 1901" and below that, "patents applied for". There is no mention of yardage on the reel
anywhere. The Take Apart posts are neither 'checker board' pattern or 'parallel groove' pattern. They are smooth.
I have another reel marked at the top of the tail plate, "Standard Reel No 2M". At the bottom, it is marked, "patents applied for". No mention of yardage anywhere. The take apart posts are smooth.
Based upon the above, I think the 2nd reel I described dates to around 1899 or 1900. And the the 1st reel I described dates around 1901 or 1902.
But my point would be that the "earliest" Standards had no yardage marks on them. And the takapart bars were smooth.
And unless we have exceptions to my observations (and that could easily be the case), it would follow that reels marked with yardage would fall into the post-1902 era.
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Len Sawisch
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Thanks!
Thanks Joe,
That's pretty consistent with my thinking
First, mine say Patents Applied For as well, but I was at work and going from Memory in the earlier post. No other patent info. I was thinking these were 1904 ish (slotted screw foot; checkered grips for the Take Aparts).
I think the Patented are 1906-1907 ish, and they started stamping or peening the foot screws so they wouldn't work loose, and then went to the 'solid' foot (1909 ish)
I think the parallel grooves in the Take Apart pillars are 1908-1909 ish (I use to collect 1910s and all the Take Aparts from Service to Perfects had the parallel grooves).
As for the writing, I have over 65 Marhoffs spread over my research table as I type, lined up by model numbers and transition features. I have begun the dismantle and photo phase as well as the pour over the catalog phase. It shouldn't take much more than another year to have the research done and start on the write-up!
Many thanks again to you for letting some nice examples slide out of your collection and on over to mine - I would be honored to have you consider contributing a thought or two, or at least 'proofing' an early draft!
Len
That's pretty consistent with my thinking
First, mine say Patents Applied For as well, but I was at work and going from Memory in the earlier post. No other patent info. I was thinking these were 1904 ish (slotted screw foot; checkered grips for the Take Aparts).
I think the Patented are 1906-1907 ish, and they started stamping or peening the foot screws so they wouldn't work loose, and then went to the 'solid' foot (1909 ish)
I think the parallel grooves in the Take Apart pillars are 1908-1909 ish (I use to collect 1910s and all the Take Aparts from Service to Perfects had the parallel grooves).
As for the writing, I have over 65 Marhoffs spread over my research table as I type, lined up by model numbers and transition features. I have begun the dismantle and photo phase as well as the pour over the catalog phase. It shouldn't take much more than another year to have the research done and start on the write-up!
Many thanks again to you for letting some nice examples slide out of your collection and on over to mine - I would be honored to have you consider contributing a thought or two, or at least 'proofing' an early draft!
Len
Len:
I'm concerned about the inter-changing of parts of Shakespeares (being done by both collectors and non-collectors). And it's getting progressively worse. It's important that we soon make some serious efforts to document what is "right" for certain Shakespeares before we get so much tinkering with them that it becomes impossible.
I'm not sure anyone can say with certainty (about most Shakespeares), "this Shakespeare reel is "right" and if your's is not like this one, it's "not right".
But I'm hoping to put together a collection of early Standards, Professionals, Standard Professionals and Perfects to enable me to say "here is one example that is right" (including screws) and then be able to explain "why" I know (think) it's right.
It's not an easy task, which I suppose is why no one has done it.
I'm concerned about the inter-changing of parts of Shakespeares (being done by both collectors and non-collectors). And it's getting progressively worse. It's important that we soon make some serious efforts to document what is "right" for certain Shakespeares before we get so much tinkering with them that it becomes impossible.
I'm not sure anyone can say with certainty (about most Shakespeares), "this Shakespeare reel is "right" and if your's is not like this one, it's "not right".
But I'm hoping to put together a collection of early Standards, Professionals, Standard Professionals and Perfects to enable me to say "here is one example that is right" (including screws) and then be able to explain "why" I know (think) it's right.
It's not an easy task, which I suppose is why no one has done it.
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Don Champion
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Len,
This might help you some. The smmothe pillars (there are no take down pillars) were probably made prior to 1906. The diamond knurl (you call checkered) were probably made 1907-08. And I think the straight knurl on the take down screws started about 1909. This is as close as I culd come looking at the old catalogs. You need to talk to Harvey.
This might help you some. The smmothe pillars (there are no take down pillars) were probably made prior to 1906. The diamond knurl (you call checkered) were probably made 1907-08. And I think the straight knurl on the take down screws started about 1909. This is as close as I culd come looking at the old catalogs. You need to talk to Harvey.
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Harvey
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Len/Joe/Don,
I have had all these questions for a long time. First, There were no 'Take Down" reels listed before 1907. That was a 1906 Patent. These reels that Joe is referring to are not "Take-Down' reels. They are solid frame.
Next question is what is the 'Patent Applied For" referring to? I thought I might be all wet but I have always assumed that the “Patent Applied For” was referring to the rim click. It was granted in 1901. That is the dates that Joe"s reel refers to. At one time I thought the Patent markings might be for the click but I have a Service marked as such and it has a button click. As on Joe’s reel, having both markings, the “Patent Applied For” must refer to something else. I have never seen a reel marked with that date so that has influenced my thinking now. The PAF may be for the rim drag which was a 1903 patent. If so, that would put a definite date on these reels. (OH, Steve?)
As for the screwed foot verses the rivets, That was a Guy Russell patent in 1910. Just glancing thru some of my early reels, I don’t have any pre ‘10 reels with out screws, Not to say they don’t exist.
Back to the take down pillars, I have both types and the checkerd /knurled one seem to be earlier. All my post ‘10 reels have the straight lines. My guess is that once they re-tooled the factory in 1907 they soon went to the straight lines on the pillars. I relize that train of thought would leave very little time for the checkerd markings. Any one else have any answers? I know my ramblings are not solid answers but points for discussion.
“H”
I have had all these questions for a long time. First, There were no 'Take Down" reels listed before 1907. That was a 1906 Patent. These reels that Joe is referring to are not "Take-Down' reels. They are solid frame.
Next question is what is the 'Patent Applied For" referring to? I thought I might be all wet but I have always assumed that the “Patent Applied For” was referring to the rim click. It was granted in 1901. That is the dates that Joe"s reel refers to. At one time I thought the Patent markings might be for the click but I have a Service marked as such and it has a button click. As on Joe’s reel, having both markings, the “Patent Applied For” must refer to something else. I have never seen a reel marked with that date so that has influenced my thinking now. The PAF may be for the rim drag which was a 1903 patent. If so, that would put a definite date on these reels. (OH, Steve?)
As for the screwed foot verses the rivets, That was a Guy Russell patent in 1910. Just glancing thru some of my early reels, I don’t have any pre ‘10 reels with out screws, Not to say they don’t exist.
Back to the take down pillars, I have both types and the checkerd /knurled one seem to be earlier. All my post ‘10 reels have the straight lines. My guess is that once they re-tooled the factory in 1907 they soon went to the straight lines on the pillars. I relize that train of thought would leave very little time for the checkerd markings. Any one else have any answers? I know my ramblings are not solid answers but points for discussion.
“H”
Anyone reading my comments needs to understand that I'm just "carrying on a conversation" and not professing to state anything scholarly. For example, I referred to Take Apart posts simply because Len did, and I thought it was an easy way to identify "which" pillars we were talking about.
With regards to the transition of the different types of screw arrangements Len is seeing in pre-1910 Shakespeares, I suspect this could be the result of interchanging parts as I previously mentioned.
I haven't looked at all of my Standards, because they're scattered. I looked at 7 or 8, and they all have the screws that Harvey mentions. But again, as Harvey says, not to say rivets don't exist.
I'm hung up a little on this interchanging of shakespeare parts as being a problem that hinders identification. I acquired several hundred shakespeare reels at the "mother of all reel auctions" in Kalamazoo several years ago, and note that even some of those reels have parts which have obviously been "replaced" or "switched out". And those reels were owned by a guy that had so many reels (6 to 7,000?) that it would not be logical for him to take time to tinker with Shakespeares. They were likely like that when he got them. Who knows.
With regards to the transition of the different types of screw arrangements Len is seeing in pre-1910 Shakespeares, I suspect this could be the result of interchanging parts as I previously mentioned.
I haven't looked at all of my Standards, because they're scattered. I looked at 7 or 8, and they all have the screws that Harvey mentions. But again, as Harvey says, not to say rivets don't exist.
I'm hung up a little on this interchanging of shakespeare parts as being a problem that hinders identification. I acquired several hundred shakespeare reels at the "mother of all reel auctions" in Kalamazoo several years ago, and note that even some of those reels have parts which have obviously been "replaced" or "switched out". And those reels were owned by a guy that had so many reels (6 to 7,000?) that it would not be logical for him to take time to tinker with Shakespeares. They were likely like that when he got them. Who knows.
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Harvey
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Joe,
I didn't mean to infer that you didn't know the difference, just that it should be clarified the date of 'Take-down" reels.
As for the changing out of parts, I would think it would more likely that most was done at the factory. Before the move from Water St., William had few employs and most parts were made to fill orders. I could see that someone ordered a dozen Standards in 1905 and to hurry the process of collecting on the sale, a foot from here, a pillar from there, etc. would be possible. What would be great is to have all of us lay our reels side by side and compare. I know that ain’t gonna happen till you buy them all up so I guess we will have to wait.
Always enjoy your imput.
“H”
I didn't mean to infer that you didn't know the difference, just that it should be clarified the date of 'Take-down" reels.
As for the changing out of parts, I would think it would more likely that most was done at the factory. Before the move from Water St., William had few employs and most parts were made to fill orders. I could see that someone ordered a dozen Standards in 1905 and to hurry the process of collecting on the sale, a foot from here, a pillar from there, etc. would be possible. What would be great is to have all of us lay our reels side by side and compare. I know that ain’t gonna happen till you buy them all up so I guess we will have to wait.
Always enjoy your imput.
“H”
There are two problems with dating these things by patents alone:
1. It's highly likely that production of a given feature could have begun as early as the date of the patent application, not the patent issuance.
2. Each of the pre-1907 Shakespeare patents contained multiple claims. For example, a click design was included in the 1897 level-wind patent.
To date these things, you have to match a feature to one or more claims in a patent. For example, Shakespeare and Marhoff got three different patents on 7/28/1903, for which they applied on three different dates in 1902. Instead of going by a patent date alone, you have to identify a patented feature and determine when the application for it was submitted. You can't just go by a drawing or two.
Too much work for me right now, but here are the pre-1907 patent numbers for those who want to get reacquainted:
591,086
686,353
734,970
734,971
734,972
799,271
801,479
820,609
Someday the expanded revision of Antique Fishing Reels will include more detailed discussion of the separate claims than the first edition, but that won't be for awhile.
Hard to imagine all those fishermen substituting parts. Isn't it possible that some replacements were done at the factory when reels were sent for repairs? Or maybe, at times, the assemblers just grabbed whatever pillars happened to be in stock at the time when they made a few Standards that day?
Sure wish the 19th-century NY reels could be dated to within a year or two like these early Shakespeares. We're lucky if we can date a lot of them within the right decade or two.
1. It's highly likely that production of a given feature could have begun as early as the date of the patent application, not the patent issuance.
2. Each of the pre-1907 Shakespeare patents contained multiple claims. For example, a click design was included in the 1897 level-wind patent.
To date these things, you have to match a feature to one or more claims in a patent. For example, Shakespeare and Marhoff got three different patents on 7/28/1903, for which they applied on three different dates in 1902. Instead of going by a patent date alone, you have to identify a patented feature and determine when the application for it was submitted. You can't just go by a drawing or two.
Too much work for me right now, but here are the pre-1907 patent numbers for those who want to get reacquainted:
591,086
686,353
734,970
734,971
734,972
799,271
801,479
820,609
Someday the expanded revision of Antique Fishing Reels will include more detailed discussion of the separate claims than the first edition, but that won't be for awhile.
Hard to imagine all those fishermen substituting parts. Isn't it possible that some replacements were done at the factory when reels were sent for repairs? Or maybe, at times, the assemblers just grabbed whatever pillars happened to be in stock at the time when they made a few Standards that day?
Sure wish the 19th-century NY reels could be dated to within a year or two like these early Shakespeares. We're lucky if we can date a lot of them within the right decade or two.
Harvey: no big deal about the pillar. It's interesting that both you and Steve mentioned the possibility of factory being the source of "interchanged" parts. It makes sense. But it is still an irritant to me since I enjoy using visual observations to learn as opposed to doing the research that is necessary for acquiring more precise and accurate knowledge.
Steve: Thanks for your comments regarding the patents. If and when I get serious about writing a few things about early shakespeares, I will use this info.
Steve: Thanks for your comments regarding the patents. If and when I get serious about writing a few things about early shakespeares, I will use this info.
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Harvey
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Thanks Steve.
Hey, I only meant that you could get within a couple years. I understood the timeframe. If you didn't produce something before the patent was granted, why would you mark it patent applied for or patent pending?
Another thing to consider about reels being changed either at the factory during repair or by the angler himself.. It is my feelings that the reels we are playing with today were items that were mostly owned by the upperclass at the time. You know, the Doctors, Lawyers, Indian Chiefs etc.. This stuff wasn't avaiable to the average farmer, blacksmiths and so forth. 1904, a Shakespeare 2L Standard reel was $6.00. A good rod would run you $7.50. Now, buy a frog for two bits or a Sure Lure or a Wordens for another $.75, add $.75 for line and you are up to almost $15.00. It would take a GOOD lawyer to afford that. Now, how often did this type of people use them? Not every day. (unless you were a GOOD lawyer) Also, if you went out and spent $15.00 for a Style "B", and those seem fairly plentiful, you ain't gonna abuse it. Another question! Why would you need to get a reel repaired when it was "Built Like A Watch"?
"H"
And by the way, I am starting to save for my expanded edition of Antique Fishing Reels so when it is avaiable, I can afford it.
Keep up the good work, Steve.
Hey, I only meant that you could get within a couple years. I understood the timeframe. If you didn't produce something before the patent was granted, why would you mark it patent applied for or patent pending?
Another thing to consider about reels being changed either at the factory during repair or by the angler himself.. It is my feelings that the reels we are playing with today were items that were mostly owned by the upperclass at the time. You know, the Doctors, Lawyers, Indian Chiefs etc.. This stuff wasn't avaiable to the average farmer, blacksmiths and so forth. 1904, a Shakespeare 2L Standard reel was $6.00. A good rod would run you $7.50. Now, buy a frog for two bits or a Sure Lure or a Wordens for another $.75, add $.75 for line and you are up to almost $15.00. It would take a GOOD lawyer to afford that. Now, how often did this type of people use them? Not every day. (unless you were a GOOD lawyer) Also, if you went out and spent $15.00 for a Style "B", and those seem fairly plentiful, you ain't gonna abuse it. Another question! Why would you need to get a reel repaired when it was "Built Like A Watch"?
"H"
And by the way, I am starting to save for my expanded edition of Antique Fishing Reels so when it is avaiable, I can afford it.
Keep up the good work, Steve.