Pflueger, Shakespeare, and many other companies in the US used to make reels for various companies (Sears-Roebuck, Montgomery-Wards, Abercrombie & Fitch, Abbey & Imbrie, etc.) which we now call trade reels.
Today trade reels are made in Japan, Taiwan and China, and are marketed by Cabela's, Bass Pro Shops and I guess others.
However, since Pflueger and Shakespeare reels are now made by someone else (apparently in China), does that make Pflueger reels "trade reels" today. Have they gone full circle?
jester yay-banana jump
Modern Trade Reels
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Reel Geezer
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Hi Reel Geezer
I don't think so. Once India gets a better infastructure I beleive they will be the next country to make the trade reels. China and Tiawan are making the bulk of them today and I believe that there will be some very nice reels comming out of China. Even now they are producing some very nice reels. However they still carry the stigmatisum that Japanese reels carry. Japanese reels started showing up in the U.S in the mid to late fifties and it wasn't long before Daiwa and Shimano started producing top quality reels and are still doing it today probably in China. Where ever there is cheap labour fishing reels will be made so I believe it is a while before we come full circle. However I do believe they will keep getting better.
I don't think so. Once India gets a better infastructure I beleive they will be the next country to make the trade reels. China and Tiawan are making the bulk of them today and I believe that there will be some very nice reels comming out of China. Even now they are producing some very nice reels. However they still carry the stigmatisum that Japanese reels carry. Japanese reels started showing up in the U.S in the mid to late fifties and it wasn't long before Daiwa and Shimano started producing top quality reels and are still doing it today probably in China. Where ever there is cheap labour fishing reels will be made so I believe it is a while before we come full circle. However I do believe they will keep getting better.
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Reel Geezer
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I think you misunderstood my question. Pflueger reels are made in China. They are very nice reels, and high quality. My question is: are these trade reels? Either Shakespeare owns a factory in China and is still a manufacturer of Shakespeare and Pflueger reels (which I sort of doubt), or they are having someone make reels to sell under their name in which case the reels are trade reels, aren't they?
I don't think India is going to take over the fishing tackle business.
I don't think India is going to take over the fishing tackle business.
Fourty years ago they probably didn't think Japan would take over the tackle industry. China is the logical area at the present to have products made due to the labour costs. In fourty years things will likely change to look for cheaper labour. India is next in line. Maybe sooner as all someone has to do is build a facility there to manufacturer reels and they will come.
Perhaps you are right. We may have come full circle and the industry has evolved into something different. In the old days when Pflueger made reels for Wades they were usually unmarked. Today the Pflueger reels is made in China is will carry the Pflueger name and come into the country though a distributor. Sold as a Pflueger but made in China. So perhaps it is not a trade reel and we have come full circle in a new eara
Bill Turnbull
Perhaps you are right. We may have come full circle and the industry has evolved into something different. In the old days when Pflueger made reels for Wades they were usually unmarked. Today the Pflueger reels is made in China is will carry the Pflueger name and come into the country though a distributor. Sold as a Pflueger but made in China. So perhaps it is not a trade reel and we have come full circle in a new eara
Bill Turnbull
What's a trade reel? Montague, for example, made a lot of different reels, many marked with what probably were their own proprietary brand names. Some of those same reels could be marked with some retailer's name and/or the retailer's proprietary brand, presumably if the retailer bought enough of them. Nevertheless, these reels were designed and manufactured by Montague, retailed by others, so, sure, Montague wholesaled trade reels.
If Shakespeare is still designing its own reels and outsources their manufacture, I wouldn't consider Shakespeare-branded reels as trade reels. If Shakespeare-designed reels are being marked as Wal-Mart reels, those would be trade reels supplied by Shakespeare. If Shakespeare merely has its own name put on reels that are designed and manufactured elsewhere, they would be the middle men in the trade reel trade, wholesaling trade reels wholesaled from a trade reel manufacturer, which might be wholesaling the same reels to other, non-Shakespeare wholesalers.
If some overseas manufacturer is making reels that they wholesale to anyone who wants them, and Shakespeare is merely importing them and selling them to U.S. dealers, then, yes, we've come full circle and Shakespeare is getting a smaller slice of the pi.
If Shakespeare is still designing its own reels and outsources their manufacture, I wouldn't consider Shakespeare-branded reels as trade reels. If Shakespeare-designed reels are being marked as Wal-Mart reels, those would be trade reels supplied by Shakespeare. If Shakespeare merely has its own name put on reels that are designed and manufactured elsewhere, they would be the middle men in the trade reel trade, wholesaling trade reels wholesaled from a trade reel manufacturer, which might be wholesaling the same reels to other, non-Shakespeare wholesalers.
If some overseas manufacturer is making reels that they wholesale to anyone who wants them, and Shakespeare is merely importing them and selling them to U.S. dealers, then, yes, we've come full circle and Shakespeare is getting a smaller slice of the pi.
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Harvey
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Great Question!
I had to sleep on this one last night. (Not really, my typing finger it the same as my pick-up finger and I went fishing last evening and it was sore.)
My loose definition of a trade reel as pre 1950:
When a company makes and sells a reel under their own name then permits another seller to sell the same reel marked with the new sellers name made by the original maker and seller. Confusing? Hell yes!.
Example:
If that was the case, Kalamazoo Tackle Company reels are not trade reels. KTC didn’t make them so they are not the original company. Shakespeare made them but did not sell the same reel in their line of products. So, What is a KTC reel? A jobbers reel? Hmm? Lets see, KTC was a separate company from Shakespeare and they gave the job of making their reels to Shakespeare. Along comes H&I. They decide to buy a cheaper reel from KTC rather that an higher priced one from Shakespeare and get their name stamped on it . Is that a trade reel? If I stick to my original description, it would be a jobber’s trade reel. Now what happens when H&I contracts to New York Tackle Company to have these reels marked ‘Utica” ? What are they now? To be truthful to the tackle industry, all reels made were trade reels, as they were made for the trade of selling fishing tackle. We just delineate reels made by one and sold under someone else’s name as such. Now try and tell a Meek collector that his Blue Grass #33 is a trade reel. No, it was made by Shakespeare for Meek. In this case, much the samegoes for sellers as South Bend and KTC reels, they were undoubtedly designed by one companies design department to be produced by some one else. The same case holds true with today’s reels.
But, I have a feeling that is not the case when it comes to design. Some company in Japan, China, Korea, etc. designs a reel and takes it to a Fishing Tackle TRADE show. There, a white hair from Pflueger or Shakespeare or someone else, sees it and likes it and contracts the designer and or maker to produce it with the selling party’s name on it. Ah, Looks like we are almost back to where we started except, more that likely, the producer doesn’t sell the reel under their name.
Full circle, I believe we have almost came except the circle now has sides. I don’t know the answer to Phil’s question but the same question can be ask about almost anything in today’s world economy. Hardly anybody makes anything for themselves.
Keep debating and I will keep reading!
“H”
I had to sleep on this one last night. (Not really, my typing finger it the same as my pick-up finger and I went fishing last evening and it was sore.)
My loose definition of a trade reel as pre 1950:
When a company makes and sells a reel under their own name then permits another seller to sell the same reel marked with the new sellers name made by the original maker and seller. Confusing? Hell yes!.
Example:
If that was the case, Kalamazoo Tackle Company reels are not trade reels. KTC didn’t make them so they are not the original company. Shakespeare made them but did not sell the same reel in their line of products. So, What is a KTC reel? A jobbers reel? Hmm? Lets see, KTC was a separate company from Shakespeare and they gave the job of making their reels to Shakespeare. Along comes H&I. They decide to buy a cheaper reel from KTC rather that an higher priced one from Shakespeare and get their name stamped on it . Is that a trade reel? If I stick to my original description, it would be a jobber’s trade reel. Now what happens when H&I contracts to New York Tackle Company to have these reels marked ‘Utica” ? What are they now? To be truthful to the tackle industry, all reels made were trade reels, as they were made for the trade of selling fishing tackle. We just delineate reels made by one and sold under someone else’s name as such. Now try and tell a Meek collector that his Blue Grass #33 is a trade reel. No, it was made by Shakespeare for Meek. In this case, much the samegoes for sellers as South Bend and KTC reels, they were undoubtedly designed by one companies design department to be produced by some one else. The same case holds true with today’s reels.
But, I have a feeling that is not the case when it comes to design. Some company in Japan, China, Korea, etc. designs a reel and takes it to a Fishing Tackle TRADE show. There, a white hair from Pflueger or Shakespeare or someone else, sees it and likes it and contracts the designer and or maker to produce it with the selling party’s name on it. Ah, Looks like we are almost back to where we started except, more that likely, the producer doesn’t sell the reel under their name.
Full circle, I believe we have almost came except the circle now has sides. I don’t know the answer to Phil’s question but the same question can be ask about almost anything in today’s world economy. Hardly anybody makes anything for themselves.
Keep debating and I will keep reading!
“H”
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Richard Lodge
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Hair splitting.....
Sorry to hear about that tired pickup finger, Harvey. Tough having to fish for your dinner, eh?
I'm too much of a novice to jump too deeply into the trade reel discussion, but you mentioned that Shakespeare didn't sell the same model reels in their line that they made for Kalamazoo. Ah, I beg to differ. In my skeleton fly reel collection I have identical reels marked, respectively, Shakespeare Kazoo, Kalamazoo Surprise, South Bend St. Joe No. 1170 and Abbey & Imbrie. I always figured Shakespeare made them all and marked them for sale by the other "name" sellers. Are those trade reels made by Shakespeare? Or are they not? Just curious what everyone thinks.
I'm too much of a novice to jump too deeply into the trade reel discussion, but you mentioned that Shakespeare didn't sell the same model reels in their line that they made for Kalamazoo. Ah, I beg to differ. In my skeleton fly reel collection I have identical reels marked, respectively, Shakespeare Kazoo, Kalamazoo Surprise, South Bend St. Joe No. 1170 and Abbey & Imbrie. I always figured Shakespeare made them all and marked them for sale by the other "name" sellers. Are those trade reels made by Shakespeare? Or are they not? Just curious what everyone thinks.
Trade reels
Go to the following web site: www.shakespeare-fishing.com/history/index.shtml
You will note that, at least until very recently, Shakespeare still claimed ownership of the Pflueger Trademark. Also check with Stu Lawson who advises that the Shakespeare plant in Japan went bankrupt a long while back and all tooling was confiscated by them. Did it go to China? Taiwan? Hong Kong? (until recently NOT China). If Shakespeare still operates the plant in mainland China (no one likely "owns" a plant there) then Pflueger reels are still Pflueger reels made in different (very differebt)venue and are not "trade reels". But what do I know? My interest ends in 1982 (made in USA). Bob (A little knowledge is a dangerous thing but usually better than nothing). Viva Pflueger!
You will note that, at least until very recently, Shakespeare still claimed ownership of the Pflueger Trademark. Also check with Stu Lawson who advises that the Shakespeare plant in Japan went bankrupt a long while back and all tooling was confiscated by them. Did it go to China? Taiwan? Hong Kong? (until recently NOT China). If Shakespeare still operates the plant in mainland China (no one likely "owns" a plant there) then Pflueger reels are still Pflueger reels made in different (very differebt)venue and are not "trade reels". But what do I know? My interest ends in 1982 (made in USA). Bob (A little knowledge is a dangerous thing but usually better than nothing). Viva Pflueger!
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Harvey
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Richard, You are correct. I didn't take the small fly reels into account. I was thinking about bait casters. The Kazoo was indeed marked for KTC as the Suprise. Sorry about the oversight. My finger was throbbing thus affecting my train of thought. And yes, there will be a Lane Snapper and a couple fillets of Moonfsh as table fare tonight!
"H"
"H"
Mucking Up the Issue
OK let's confuse things even further...as trade reels are my particular little Jones I have ruminated about this for some time.
The structure of selling for the pre-WWII tackle trade (like many others) was approximately as follows:
Manufacturer -- Wholesaler -- Jobber/Distributor -- Retailer.
What is the difference between a wholesaler and a jobber? Think of it along distribution lines. A wholesaler was a BIG company whose buying power allowed it to purchase huge loads of goods (read TACKLE) cheaply from manufacturers. Then the wholesaler would sell at true wholesale prices to a number of other distributors, called Jobbers or Distributors, who then would mark up the goods and sell to a number of retailers in their local region. Thus three people had profited from your reel before it ever got into a retailer's hands, who would then profit from the mark up to retail price. In other words, four people sometimes made money from the same reel. The bigger the retailer (think Target or KMart here) the more likely they could cut out the distributor or even the wholesaler and buy direct from the manufacturer.
Let's confuse things even more. Some wholesalers sold directly to retailers, cutting out the jobber. Most of these Jobbers advertised themselves as wholesale houses but in reality they were one step removed from wholesaling as distributors. Some jobbers became wholesalers, some wholesaled in one field and distributed in another. Some wholesalers set up distribution networks (think Marshall-Wells associate stores here). Large wholesalers controlled the means of manufacturing for many items (think Diamond Manufacturing Company, both an actual manufacturer of items like Keen Kutter axes and a distributor of fishing tackle).
Let's not forget that many manufacturers sold directly to the trade; why do you think catalogs were so important in the tackle industry? Far greater profit was made when you ordered from Heddon or Shakespeare than from selling to Shapleigh at wholesale prices, and watching three other people make money from your Kazoo Trolling Bug. Further to confuse things, many manufacturers also acted as distributors--look at early Shakespeare catalogs and find, in horror, Heddon fishing tackle.
How does this affect fishing reels? Take for example a Montague reel marked Marshall Field Conway. Clearly made directly for Marshall Field and a true "trade reel." How about a Montague reel marked Rainbow? Defiance? No trade name specific to one company, shows up in both wholesaler and distributor catalogs. These "generic" trade reels as they were called, were often bought in huge numbers by wholesalers like Simmons who would then sell them to Jobbers/Distributors, which explains why they show up in every one else's catalogs. Confuse the issue even further, because Montague retained the right to sell these "generic" trade reels directly to the public. So a Defiance reel is both a trade reel and a true Montague reel at the same time!
I would argue true trade reels are imprinted with a specific trade name, usually a registered trade mark, of the company for whom they were made. sometimes these trade reels were sold to jobber/distributors, but they remain trade reels only if sold with a unique wholesaler trade name (Bingham's Uncle Tom, Shapleigh's Diamond, etc.) and NOT OFFERED for sale under that name by the manufacturer. In other words, a reel marked in such a way that they can be traced back to ONE source. Initerestingly, this does not always mean a wholesaler; true trade reels were also made for distributors (Morley-Murphy e.g.) and retailers (Marshall Field, Klein's Sporting Goods, etc.).
So in my humble opinion here are your categories of trade reels:
True Trade Reels (made specifically for one company for retail or distribution and marked with a unique trade name specific to one company)
Generic Trade Reels (imprinted with a generic name like Defiance intended for wholesale or retail by manufacturer, wholesaler, jobber, and retailer)
Blank Trade Reels (trade reels made with no identifying mark and purposely left blank to facillitate sale on every level. Sometimes these are found in boxes that identify mftr, wholesaler, distributor, or retailer which would then make them Generic Trade Reels).
Unique Trade Reels (made by a manufacturer on contract to commemorate events, advertise something, for fishing clubs, etc. Very rare as they were cost prohibitive.)
Well, that is my two cents worth. Back to grading.
Cheers,
Dr. Todd
The structure of selling for the pre-WWII tackle trade (like many others) was approximately as follows:
Manufacturer -- Wholesaler -- Jobber/Distributor -- Retailer.
What is the difference between a wholesaler and a jobber? Think of it along distribution lines. A wholesaler was a BIG company whose buying power allowed it to purchase huge loads of goods (read TACKLE) cheaply from manufacturers. Then the wholesaler would sell at true wholesale prices to a number of other distributors, called Jobbers or Distributors, who then would mark up the goods and sell to a number of retailers in their local region. Thus three people had profited from your reel before it ever got into a retailer's hands, who would then profit from the mark up to retail price. In other words, four people sometimes made money from the same reel. The bigger the retailer (think Target or KMart here) the more likely they could cut out the distributor or even the wholesaler and buy direct from the manufacturer.
Let's confuse things even more. Some wholesalers sold directly to retailers, cutting out the jobber. Most of these Jobbers advertised themselves as wholesale houses but in reality they were one step removed from wholesaling as distributors. Some jobbers became wholesalers, some wholesaled in one field and distributed in another. Some wholesalers set up distribution networks (think Marshall-Wells associate stores here). Large wholesalers controlled the means of manufacturing for many items (think Diamond Manufacturing Company, both an actual manufacturer of items like Keen Kutter axes and a distributor of fishing tackle).
Let's not forget that many manufacturers sold directly to the trade; why do you think catalogs were so important in the tackle industry? Far greater profit was made when you ordered from Heddon or Shakespeare than from selling to Shapleigh at wholesale prices, and watching three other people make money from your Kazoo Trolling Bug. Further to confuse things, many manufacturers also acted as distributors--look at early Shakespeare catalogs and find, in horror, Heddon fishing tackle.
How does this affect fishing reels? Take for example a Montague reel marked Marshall Field Conway. Clearly made directly for Marshall Field and a true "trade reel." How about a Montague reel marked Rainbow? Defiance? No trade name specific to one company, shows up in both wholesaler and distributor catalogs. These "generic" trade reels as they were called, were often bought in huge numbers by wholesalers like Simmons who would then sell them to Jobbers/Distributors, which explains why they show up in every one else's catalogs. Confuse the issue even further, because Montague retained the right to sell these "generic" trade reels directly to the public. So a Defiance reel is both a trade reel and a true Montague reel at the same time!
I would argue true trade reels are imprinted with a specific trade name, usually a registered trade mark, of the company for whom they were made. sometimes these trade reels were sold to jobber/distributors, but they remain trade reels only if sold with a unique wholesaler trade name (Bingham's Uncle Tom, Shapleigh's Diamond, etc.) and NOT OFFERED for sale under that name by the manufacturer. In other words, a reel marked in such a way that they can be traced back to ONE source. Initerestingly, this does not always mean a wholesaler; true trade reels were also made for distributors (Morley-Murphy e.g.) and retailers (Marshall Field, Klein's Sporting Goods, etc.).
So in my humble opinion here are your categories of trade reels:
True Trade Reels (made specifically for one company for retail or distribution and marked with a unique trade name specific to one company)
Generic Trade Reels (imprinted with a generic name like Defiance intended for wholesale or retail by manufacturer, wholesaler, jobber, and retailer)
Blank Trade Reels (trade reels made with no identifying mark and purposely left blank to facillitate sale on every level. Sometimes these are found in boxes that identify mftr, wholesaler, distributor, or retailer which would then make them Generic Trade Reels).
Unique Trade Reels (made by a manufacturer on contract to commemorate events, advertise something, for fishing clubs, etc. Very rare as they were cost prohibitive.)
Well, that is my two cents worth. Back to grading.
Cheers,
Dr. Todd
Trade reels
Todd-How could you have possibly typed in all of that reply in the 6 minutes since I posted my little note? Black magic, no doubt! Ciao Bob
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Reel Geezer
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trade reels? or economics?
cool-thumb 
jump canadian usa Ok so here are some finacial facts!One of the reasons the name brand items are made off shore or China, Japan, and other contries is! TAXES, TAXES, TAXES! All fishing tackle items are taxed in this country USA by the friendly FED. tax folks , Lures on the First point of sale at 10% reels rods hooks about the same 10% However if the same item is mfg. lets say China, then brought thru a country that is in (NAFTA), there is NO TAX or DUTY, thus a USA company can build in China , come thru Canada or Mexico and be 10% ahead of the American mfg. Producing in this country the USA! ZEBCO, for instance shipped most of their equipment to CHINA and its produced under the watchfull eyes of ZEBCOs folks! As for the very low end items made by other companies, if Wall Mart orders 2 million lures, reels, rods etc regardless of the brand name mfg. they are up on us americans by the 10% and duty! As for the trade rules? If Wall mart orders a million reels, Those reels will actualy become throw aways, ie NO SPARE PARTS) if they sell it then Mr & Mrs LOLIPOP consumer gets the wrong end of the deal! and blame whomever names are on the product! My answere to that is( PUT the SELLERS name on the product not the MFG. Company and put a warning -- NO PARTS to REPIR THIS REEL oR ROD! Same for Bass pro, some Cabelas JUNK , Target stores,KMART, Its time to expose the truth, as I as a repair shop face angry buyers of this JUNK! The next thing to do is ask The FED. GOV, to do away with the Fed excise tax or drop it to 3% so the USA can once again be competitive! I have just about stoped making Lures just because of FET taxes ec, and No protection for KNOCK OFFs ) We only custom build to a buyers request! In my thoughts , only quality items are worth your hard earned Dollars! As it stands now the USA gov. will not stop the flo of Knock OFF products be it reels, rods or lures! Ask Clint Beeler what I brought up at the ZEBCO PLANT about this very thing when a aggresive marketing guy wants to sell a no parts reel to Walllmart! He admited they would be virtuly throw a ways! NO PARTS! All of us that are Warrenty Centers hammered him HARD! So did CLINT! Your Ohio Conection On Lake Erie Col. Milton Lorens aka SWIM JIG -
Jerry J in OK
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Jack Bright
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Mfgr`s,Wholesale,Jobbers, Retail, etc.
Whew!. . . I`ll just stick to OLD stuff that appeals to me visually, and hope
that I find that 40 yd. 'Perfect' by Wm.Shakesp.Jr., and then what ?
that I find that 40 yd. 'Perfect' by Wm.Shakesp.Jr., and then what ?
Trade reels
Jerry-Thanks for checking USPTO. Shakespeare has two more years before they must renew. Bet they don't forget, but some big companies have and when they found someone had top-filed their trademarks it cost them a fortune to get them back. Bob
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fishbugman
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trade reel
From the post above by Reel Geezer... I think you misunderstood my question. Pflueger reels are made in China. They are very nice reels, and high quality. My question is: are these trade reels?
Answer. Yes, those are trade reels. Trade them for a nickel or a dime or whatever you can get.
Answer. Yes, those are trade reels. Trade them for a nickel or a dime or whatever you can get.
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Reel Geezer
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