Mitchell date ?

Ron Mc · Post by **Ron Mc** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:06 am

Can anyone date these Mitchell reels ?
This dates a whole catalog for me, and has some interesting info on Young and Bampton reels that I need to date.
The numbers, BTW, must be Dickson & Sons / Alex Martin cat. nos.
Thanks

FSREPAIR · Post by **FSREPAIR** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:34 am

Ron, check out this Mitchell message board. Click on the "Discussions" heading and scroll to bottom. The info you are looking for is listed under "Mitchell & Teflon Gears".
[/img]http://www.werpmolens.nl/phpBB2/

Ron Mc · Post by **Ron Mc** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:40 am

thanks, I knew 1950s and was hoping to get within a year or two.

Hey, I think I found it from Christian L'Hermitte's homepage - 1955-1956 sound right?

http://www.werpmolens.nl/phpBB2

http://orcaonline.org/images/pixel.gif?i

thanks again !

Araye50 · Post by **Araye50** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:11 pm

I believe the 306 wasn't introduced until 1960, 1959 at the earliest. That is the only detail that conspicuously dates the catalog page. The 300 & 304 pass this test, but could be older. No way you'd find a 306 in '55-'56! Likely not later than '61 either, but would need more detail to prove it.

Harvey · Post by **Harvey** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:29 pm

I don't read French very well but in Luc de Medts book, he list the 306 as beginning in 1958.
"H"

Ben · Post by **Ben** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 6:57 am

Hi Ron,
The model 306 first version is listed in Dennis Roberts new book as being introduced in 1960.
Ben

Ron Mc · Post by **Ron Mc** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:03 am

except wouldn't the nylon gears be gone by 1958?

(The reason I'm trying to get the date, is this catalog has Dingley fly reels, and I know Dingley closed up shop in 1954 - likely Dickson Martin had an inventory. It also has Young fly reel with symmtric reversible drag, which I have seen dated as 1957-59...I was wondering if it was earlier).

1958 may be the right date - I just need to verify. Thanks for all your insights.

(Harvey, I'll get this catalog to you and a couple of others before long.)

snoekjaeger · Post by **snoekjaeger** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:29 am

It would not surprise me the 306 was catalogued and advertised one year before it was actually being sold. Also note most "new product" catalogs appear round the year-end, advertising stuf for the "new" fishing-season.
This catalog could have appeared let's say 1958-59, for products being available during 1959. And... very often products are being offered at a different time (sooner OR later) in Europe versus USA.
As we all know, catalogs are not 100% to be trusted, very often the same pics are being used for many years, while the reels have changed in some way ! Just to say the pics don't allways fully reflect the text !

Anyhow, this ad can be dated somewhere 1958-60, while most Mitchell collectors would have dated the teflon-gears a lot earlier... interesting !
Let's dig up some more ad's announcing the teflon gears !
Jean-Paul

Ron Mc · Post by **Ron Mc** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:08 am

nylon jester

BTW, "New Model" for the Intermediate (306) is probably our 1958-59 date provenance.

This also agrees with the JW Young dates.

Very curious about 2 Dingley reels listed in this catalog.

about WH Dingley Drewett wrote:Started his own fly reel company about 1919 and recruited ex- Hardy men. Made reels for the trade and several companies but you can usually find the "D" stamp inside those reels. Died 1-27-1946 at age 88. Oldest son Ernest ran his company until March 1954 when the company closed on his death.

Araye50 · Post by **Araye50** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:55 pm

In Dennis Roberts 2000 book he is very tentative about the 1st Mitchell 306 apearing in 1959 saying "This reel is pictured in a catalog but its existence was never substantiated. The general consensus is that it was never manufactured as shown." Note that the distinguishing detail is 'Mitchell 306' is engraved below the crank, as opposed to being above & behind. Perhaps that detail is visible in the catalog in question here. Then he skips to the 2nd version in '61. As a 'New Model' in a catalog '59 or '60 seem most likely.

I've had nearly 100 Mitchell 300 reels, many of this vintage & have not seen any nylon or teflon gears.

Ron Mc · Post by **Ron Mc** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:36 pm

not to offend, but exceptions have been taken with more than one published author. I don't believe this reel would have debuted all over the world at the same time. I also believe that the nylon gears have a specific date significance, and would like to see more about that. Reels are listed with nylon gears (I'd certainly be surprised if there were ever any teflon gears).
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/mitchell-moulin ... s.html#306

so far, I'm most impressed with Christian's 1958 date. 1958 also apprears to be the date for "new" planmatic gearing in the 314, which would agree.

Araye50 · Post by **Araye50** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:19 am

Roberts 2000 places the introduction of the 314 in 1961. The 314 had 'Planamatic' gearing at it's inception. I seriously doubt your 1958 date.

Not to offend, but can anyone confirm ever seeing nylon gears in a vintage Mitchell reel? It would be extremely unusual for all the 4 models from that catalog page to have nylon gears & for me to have never seen or heard about nylon gears & have to ask others. I've had over 400 Mitchells, seen a boat load more & have a modest collection of literature w/o ever coming across nylon gears. IMO the nylon gears do not exist.

If your arrow is pointing to confirmation of the engraved 'Mitchell 306' is located above & behind the crank, it would argue against an earlier date.

snoekjaeger · Post by **snoekjaeger** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 4:39 am

So far the only Mitchell reels found with the nylon (some people use the term teflon becuase they are white and look like teflon) gears are :

- the early CAP with the nylon main gear (one is available for everyone to see at Christian L'Hermitte's webpage listed above)
- the early '300'/Standard, you can contact Haanstra from werpmolens.nl on these

The advertisement listed above only mentions the Standard having these gears, it makes no sense in saying they all had them... just read the add...

Ron Mc · Post by **Ron Mc** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:22 am

snoekjaeger wrote: - the early '300'/Standard, you can contact Haanstra from werpmolens.nl on these

The advertisement listed above only mentions the Standard having these gears, it makes no sense in saying they all had them... just read the add...

that's great, can you date this? thanks

I can verify that the JW Young reel models in this catalog, and the drawings, were in their 1959 catalog (obviously doesn't preclude later, but may not preclude earlier).

Again, the amazing part is three models of hand-soldered, lead-finished fly reels (one of which I own) 20+ years after most fly reel collectors would have expected...and 4-7 years? after the maker closed shop.

when I get this catalog dated, it will be in the ORCA library
John Dickson & Sons Alex Martin Combined Angling Catalog.

If any Mitchell collectors want the page, I have a high-resolution image and can send it - e-mail me.

other models listed in the catalog that may help:
"Italian" No. 2 C.S. (Alcedo?)
Morritt Intrepid
Intrepid Elite
Intrepid De Luxe
Intrepid Envoy
Intrepid Supreme

ABU:
Ambassadeur 6000
Ambassadeur 5000
(Pflueger Summit and Supreme)

Ron Mc · Post by **Ron Mc** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 6:37 am

FOUND IT

There are four New Books listed in the catalog, all published 1957 !

I will identify the catalog as 1958.

(This agrees with Christian's dates for 306 and planmatic gears)

I believe that Mr. Roberts dates are incorrect.
(this is too not uncommon. I can show you two Widely published authors that dated a first model reel as "1930s" and "1951", when the Maker's catalog show it introduced in 1948. The really funny part, when brought to each of their attention - not by me - they both replied to the effect that there will always be detractors - that's megalomania. I would just love to see a gracious, oops, sorry, thanks for the information.)

thanks for your input.

FSREPAIR · Post by **FSREPAIR** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:06 am

The Mitchell CAP with a nylon drive gear is shown on Christian's website at this link: http://orcaonline.org/images/pixel.gif?cap.html The picture of the nylon drive is at the bottom of the page. Be apitient as it takes a while to load. Here is the link to another page showing Christian's Mitchell 300 reels and less than half way down the page a 300 side plate with a nylon transfer gear: http://orcaonline.org/images/pixel.gif? ... html#3002m Hopefully these links will take you directly to those pages saving you some time in searching for them. Randy

snoekjaeger · Post by **snoekjaeger** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:48 am

These come from the 1954 Fishing Tackle Digest, 4th edition by Jacobs/Wight, Crown publishers NY.
There's some pretty interesting information to be found if you can read between the lines

MatchReels · Post by **MatchReels** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:51 am

Gentlemen:

I've been reading the discussion pertaining to the model 306 and its year of introduction. In my original book I have 1959 as the introductory year of the 306. If you look at page 89 closely, from what can be determined that inscription configuration was never produced by Mitchell and this is what I was referring to as being "never seen in circulation".

To be more specific about the origin of the 306, I offer the following. A few years ago I had the pleasure of speaking to one of the representatives from the company that produced all the Garcia annuals from 1957 - 1979. We discussed the annuals at length and some of the particulars that were listed including the accuracy of when the product that was described in an annual to when it was actually released.

On average, there was about a 1 year lag time between what was printed in the annual and its release date. Therefore, if we take 1958 as when the 306 was first advertised, then realistically,1959 is when the 306 was first issued in Europe with the same configuration as found on page 90 of my first book. Then in 1960, the same exact reel with a yellow Garcia sticker affixed to the reel proper, packaged in the dark blue 2-piece box, was released for North American distribution.

The dates of issue on page 90 and 91 of my original book are incorrect and have since been corrected in my new book. In my new book, I have the first 306 as being issued in the US in 1960, which is the correct date of issue for NA. What I neglected to indicate is that the same reel was probably issued in Europe in 1959.

I hope this information helps clarify some of the questions raised.

Dennis Roberts

Ron Mc · Post by **Ron Mc** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:44 pm

thanks Dennis,
best regards,
Ron McAlpin

Araye50 · Post by **Araye50** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:46 pm

Great drawing of the rare 'missing link' 1st version full bail 302.

However, readers should note that not only are there reasons to be skeptical when approximating dates via catalogs, but the specs are often in doubt as well. For instance the CAP 304 reel is described as getting the 'Planamatic' gearing. I presume there was a European release just to make it confusing, but IMO all 304 & CAP reels in this line found in the US were standard in/out & it was the 314 that got the 'Planamatic' treatment. Catalogs can often be found to hold illustrations that are a year or 2 off either direction, mix up the specs & throw a little bull.

Ron Mc · Post by **Ron Mc** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:52 pm

no problem with that, friend. In their 1940 catalog, William Mills & Son was still using a 1919 Heaton drawing to advertise a reel model they had replaced with one made by JW Young some 10 years earlier.

Araye50 · Post by **Araye50** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:52 pm

Dennis Roberts,

Thanks for your clarification, would you care to comment on the range & extent of nylon gears in Mitchells?

Also does your new book include the unusual '1st version' full bail 302 seen in the illustration above? I've been particularly interested in the 302 development & have struggled to put an accurate time line together. The peculiar 1st full bail was one of my great surprises in collecting Mtichells.

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