Penn Seaford

[m3040c]

Hello All you Interesting people,

I HAVE A QUESTION--------------I just purchased a Penn Seaford. I know it is one of Penn's first production reels. The individual I purchased the reel from also had in his collection a Penn Bridge City. I believe the Seaford was introduced in 1933 and the Bridge City in 1934 and that both these reels were made well into the 1940's. There was a major difference on the sideplates of these reels. On the sideplate of the Seaford it stated "Patent Pending" and on the sideplate of the Bridge City it stated "Patented". Does anyone know if the "Patent Pending" marking on the Seaford was ever changed to "Patented" and when that change might have happened? Having this info may help me date the reel.

Thanks to everyone that has helped me in the past and I just received my first issue of the club magazine and it is great.

[reeldealer44]

later models will say patd. the 1933 models are 3 pillar brown,and have a smooth round click button. 1934 are brown 3 pillar models w/ a waffle click button. i think 1935 and latter will be 4 piller. hope that helps. mike popowich

[m3040c]

Thank you Mike, that does help and also raises a question. My Seaford is a 4 pillar, wood bell shaped handle with a hex nut and has the waffle click button.
The reel does state "Patent Pending". All things considered, this reel would likely be a late 1930's reel. I say that because the patents that Otto Henze applied for these reels were granted in December, 1933. I wonder when the actual production reels relected the granted patent and change their stamping.

I guess we are really splitting hairs here but that is what makes collecting so interesting.

Mike Cass

[Araye50]

You are really pushing it when you say "I believe the Seaford was introduced in 1933"! Try to get yourself a look at a copy of Penn's 2005 catalog. The 1st named Penns after the '32-'33 models F & K were the SEA HAWK, BAYSIDE & LONG BEACH introduced in Feb. '33. IMO the 1st possible year for SEAFORD would have to be '34 if you believe Penn's take on their own history.

[m3040c]

If you go to the Penn Website and click on the 1930's history section you will see a Jobbers Price List for October, 1933. The last reel on the list is the Penn Seaford in 250 and 300 yard models.

[Bruce Davis]

Mike
You are right about the Seaford is on the jobber list in 1933 I have the orginal list that would be the brown three piller round button reel that Mike Popowich was talking about. The article in the 2005 Penn mag was about the two K's and the F and what they were changed to being Sea Hawk Bay Side and Long Beach that is why the Seaford was not mentioned.
Just to muddy the waters a little there has been found a pamplet with a brown three piller named Sea King 150 yd #30 this was not a trade reel as it was on same pamplet with Long Beach, Bayside, and Sea Hawk
Bruce Davis

[Araye50]

I suspect the 'Jobbers Confidential Price List' was strictly for wholesale purposes, to establish how many reels of each model should be built for planning purposes & represented the upcoming models. Issued in October '33 the actual orders may very well have not been filled until well into '34. The same page also discusses the renaming of the F & K.

http://orcaonline.org/images/pixel.gif?1930s.htm

It also inexplicably includes a photo of what is clearly an Ocean City reel next to text about the Penn F & K reels! The OC reel appears to be a 50's Inductor model, the only possible connection being Henze left OC to start Penn.

IMO F & K were introduced in '32. SEAHAWK, LONG BEACH & BAYSIDE were introduced in '33. Other models come after that. Planning & prototyping is one thing, to me "introduction" means when you could buy one, as in, introduced to the public or market. Wholesalers & distributors regularly get special early introductions, sometimes very far in advance, even years in advance, just to gauge interest. Some items, so introduced, never even make it to the market b/c of a lack of interest!

[m3040c]

It is really amazing how many different opinions there are about this reel. So who really knows? I am sure that these opinions can speculate and change forever. Documentation is weak to some and strong to others. I am simple. If the Penn Seaford is on a 1933 Jobbers (Wholesale) list, I have to presume it existed in 1933. Penn has represented it in their company history along with the Sea Hawk, Long Beach and Bay Side as a 1933 reel. The only reason that this makes a difference to me, is that part of my Penn collection I have designated as first generation production reels. In those first generation reels I include the Seaford only because Penn included it in their history and if I did not include it I would feel like there was something missing. I can not think of a better reason than that. Everything else is speculation.

What is interesting here is that the origin of the Seaford was never the question, the question was, when was the "Patent Pending" designation on the sideplate changed. On the Penn website is a copy of the granted original Patent which is dated December, 1933. If the Seaford is a 1934 reel, why would it be stamped "Patent Pending".

Thank you all for your opinions. Without them, all would be boring.

-----------------LIFE IS A TREASURE HUNT--------------------------

[Araye50]

To quote Kevin Martin, Penn CEO, from their '05 catalog:

"On July 30, 1932, Mr. Edelson filed the two patents for the technology used in the MOD F and the MOD K."

Of the renamed F & K models; SEA HAWK, BAYSIDE & LONG BEACH:

"Actual sales invoices confirm that these 3 reels were first sold in February, 1933."

IMO Penn's "first generation production reels" were the vanishingly rare Models F & K.

IMO Penn's 2nd generation reels were the renamed 3 post SEAHAWK, BAYSIDE & LONG BEACH.

IMO other Penn reels belong on other generations, the SEAFORD in question is no doubt among the 3rd generation & the first 4 post reel.

Your SEAFORD 'patent pending' reel is of the 4 post design, like mine. Can anyone confirm an earlier 3 post SEAFORD as has been suggested?

IMO the addition of 4 post designs was the major difference between sideplates for reels under 1940593-1952756 patent numbers & was introduced in 1934. I suspect Penn used their stock of 'patent pending' sideplates regardless of when the patent office acted. In those days production of tools & dies was slow & costly, resulting in delays & overruns. The patents were awarded at the gov't's leisure, several months apart, Penn did not wait.

Have you confirmed that there even are SEAFORD sideplates marked 'patented' yet & that they do not have other distinguishing features?

IMO SEAFORD was the 1st departure from the 3 post design & as such, represent the 3rd generation of Penn reels, not the 1st, regardless of what date you put on it's introduction.

Of course each model line also has a 1st generation, if that is what you were getting at, I apologize. For example the 1st generation of 50's Spinfisher 700 features the unique curved, painted diecast handle and the 1st generation Baja Special is only a couple of years old. In that case I'm afraid that you'll need to assemble several different SEAFORDs & compare any changes in order to rank them. Confirming that there are patent pending & patented versions would be a good 1st step.

I can confirm SEAFORD made it until '40, its in Catalog #8 & although illegible, shows 2 lines (as my early 1 does) on the logo where 'patent pending' is located, rather than one line 'patented'. Of course there's no way of knowing if the image wasn't just recycled from earlier catalogs. However it has later plastic torpedo knob & scalloped handle nut w/lock screw.

This is proof on paper that even in '40 SEAFORD still had 'patent pending' on it's faceplate! BRIDGE CITY & BAYHEAD also show 'patent pending' in these illustrations.

[m3040c]

I can not compete with all this research. I have officially changed my"First Generation" classification to "1930's Penn Reels". I think Araye50 is much better versed in all this than I am and he also makes some very strong points. I will keep my eyes out for some varitions in the Penn Seaford. Somewhere back in all this discussion is a comment form Mike Popowich (who I highly regard) stating that the Seaford had a 3 and 4 pillar version. I have a feeling that is the voice of experience speaking. I have yet to see a 3 pillar version but I will be watching.

I expect that Araye50 is correct about the stampings and that mass production rather than correctness dictated what entered the marketplace.


This is really getting deep,

Mike Cass

[m3040c]

Here it is in living color. I guess there is at least one 3 pillar Seaford in existance.

[Araye50]

You're competing just fine! This SEAFORD is a missing link! Not a model F/SEA HAWK, not a model K/BAYSIDE & not at all like other SEAFORDs! Looks to be an F faceplate factory modified for FS & w/round mound for the gear/bridge, w/o the K's Mickey Mouse Ears! Terrific, Penn continues to surprise w/every conceivable combination of parts.

I'd bet that must be the 1st generation of SEAFORD!

Of course now the problem is more complex b/c we must make room for yet another variant in '33-'34. This could end up making the 1st 4 post SEAFORD a '35! It would be so easy if we didn't know Penn applied for F & K patents the same day.

Most interesting, mechanically, this reel seems to fall between the F & K! Its essentially nothing more than a free spool F/SEA HAWK! Would love to see a comparison of internal parts between this & the K w/o star, to see the mechanisms.

You've successfully twisted my arm, this 3 post SEAFORD reel makes sense for that '33 Jobbers List.

Outstanding! Bravo! Impressive! I want one!

[m3040c]

The credit for the photo of the 3 post Seaford goes to Mr. Bruce Davis. He emailed the photo to me. All I did was post it as fast as I could. It just goes to prove one thing. As soon as you believe that all the info is in place for a complete story, out of the woodwork comes another twist.


------------------------------LIFE IS A TREASURE HUNT----------------------------

[Harvey]

Since youz guyz are into a discussion of Penn reels and keep referring back to early catalogues. How about making some copies and donating them to the ORCA Library?
Here is what I need.
1933, '34, '35, '36, '37, #12, #13, #14, #19, #31, #32, 1988, '90, '91, '93, '95, 'and 1997 to date.

I really would like a copy of the 2005 with the history of the company in it. This is a way you Penn collectors can help others by filling in the missing links.
Remember, information is the life blood of ORCA and most of what you know is something that you got from someone else.
Help our POOR, STRUGGLING Library out and donate.
Thanks,
The Librarian (by day)

EDIT:
PS: What am I missing here. The two patents that are refered to have nothing to do with how many pillars the reel has. Both are for the freespool invention with one being for a star drag. Both patents were filed on the same day, 7/30/1932 and were given a serial number just one number apart, which means that they were filed at the same time. Please enlighten me about how you can tell when the number of pillars were changed from three to four by using these patents as a reference along with gernic catalogue pictures?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Harvey (by night)

[m3040c]

Hello Harvey,

I have a #19 catalog that I will copy tonight at my job and mail to you. Please send me your address in an email.

Mike Cass

[Reel Geezer]

Harvey: Do you want the 2005 catalog, or just the history part. I'll send you a copy of the history if that is what you need.

Edit: In looking for some of those other catalogs, I found that I have two copies of the 2005 catalog. I'll send one to the library. You need the whole catalog, for it is a beauty.

[Harvey]

Phil,
Would like the WHOLE catalogue but will take ANYTHING that I can get.
Thanke,
harvey

[Reel Geezer]

Harvey - It went out in the mail today.

[Harvey]

Thanks Gez! NOW to get the Librarian off his duff!