http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7808171.stm...looks like an increasingly desperate fishing expedition...
Opinions welcomed, informed (cool-thumb) or otherwise (:loco:)!
Not to change the subject, but...
Not to change the subject, but...
...inquiring minds want to know: How's the fishing?
Opinions welcomed, informed (cool-thumb) or otherwise (:loco:)!
Opinions welcomed, informed (cool-thumb) or otherwise (:loco:)!
Yo Steve- Coincidence, but I have been writing the history and pre-history of a small watershed here that includes the human presence beginning 13,000 or so years ago. There is nothing I have found in researching such in this region to suggest that anything catastrophic happened to wipe out either Clovis-era man or mastodons. Mammoths had begun to decline some 5,000 years earlier in this region, and were gone by 10,000 YBP. Humans had a big impact on the extinction of the mastodons, but not nearly so much as did the retreat of the Wisconsin Stage ice sheet (which began 13,000 YBP). By 10,000 YBP ice was far to the north. It had reached Southern IL at the maximum advance. Mastodons were still able to find sufficient suitable forage in a mixed deciduous forest-grassland flora, but mammoths needed wide open arctic-sub-arctic grassland terrain to roam through for forage (it was a "tooth kind of thing"). Such was "fast" disappearing, then gone by 10,000 YBP. By the Altithermal stage (8,000 YBP) the flora here was pretty much deciduous forest. Faunas were vastly different.
I agree this seems a "fishing expedition" until more solid evidence appears. But then, what do I know?
Bad Bob
I agree this seems a "fishing expedition" until more solid evidence appears. But then, what do I know?
Bad Bob
There are a lot of gaps in all of this extinction theory debate. An interesting aside:
What would happen to wild Pandas if a blight killed off ALL of their favorite bamboo in their region of China? (I know there are periodic die-offs of the bamboo species, but not all of it dies and not all Pandas die either). Or Koalas if eucalytptus died off. No "perfect storm" here, simply a fact of an overspecailized diet that renders the beast incapable of surviving if their goodies go away. There is always the possibility of a virus too, right Steve? Too many possibilities here without direct evidence to back them up. A lot of beasties lived for long, long periods of time then disappeared in a relativley short time without any evidence that a cataclysmic event caused their demise.
There IS direct evidence,however, here in Middle Tennessee that humans killed (and enjoyed eating) mastodons (camp site with mastodon remains south of Nashville-big BBQ tailgate party before going to a Titans game!).
Bad Bob
What would happen to wild Pandas if a blight killed off ALL of their favorite bamboo in their region of China? (I know there are periodic die-offs of the bamboo species, but not all of it dies and not all Pandas die either). Or Koalas if eucalytptus died off. No "perfect storm" here, simply a fact of an overspecailized diet that renders the beast incapable of surviving if their goodies go away. There is always the possibility of a virus too, right Steve? Too many possibilities here without direct evidence to back them up. A lot of beasties lived for long, long periods of time then disappeared in a relativley short time without any evidence that a cataclysmic event caused their demise.
There IS direct evidence,however, here in Middle Tennessee that humans killed (and enjoyed eating) mastodons (camp site with mastodon remains south of Nashville-big BBQ tailgate party before going to a Titans game!).
Bad Bob
Glad you mentioned viruses. I've long felt that plagues could have caused "sudden" extinctions, but I'm not aware of disease being proposed as a mechanism very often, except in cases of human cultures.
While we're at it, what does "sudden" or "fast" mean in paleogeological terms? Over a millennium? During a commercial break?
Is there reason to think that the disappearance of the Clovis culture was a result of widespread human death, rather than maybe a rapid change in lifestyle perhaps stemming from intercultural contact? For example, suppose that Clovians were forced to trek southward during the Younger Dryas, and on their way they encountered other cultures, whose hunting, farming, cooking, sewing, chipping methods made their way north as the weather warmed eventually and folks trekked north again. (Makes you wonder why the wheel wasn't introduced farther north when wanderers might have encountered the meso-American toys fitted with wheels several thousand years later.)
Not surprising that a gradual shift in proboscidian populations would not account for the demise of Clovis culture, whether in your neck of the woods or elsewhere. The local gentry seem to have been well-versed in their mammothology and certainly could have become experts in masto-bation as the need arose.
While we're at it, what does "sudden" or "fast" mean in paleogeological terms? Over a millennium? During a commercial break?
Is there reason to think that the disappearance of the Clovis culture was a result of widespread human death, rather than maybe a rapid change in lifestyle perhaps stemming from intercultural contact? For example, suppose that Clovians were forced to trek southward during the Younger Dryas, and on their way they encountered other cultures, whose hunting, farming, cooking, sewing, chipping methods made their way north as the weather warmed eventually and folks trekked north again. (Makes you wonder why the wheel wasn't introduced farther north when wanderers might have encountered the meso-American toys fitted with wheels several thousand years later.)
Not surprising that a gradual shift in proboscidian populations would not account for the demise of Clovis culture, whether in your neck of the woods or elsewhere. The local gentry seem to have been well-versed in their mammothology and certainly could have become experts in masto-bation as the need arose.
Clever wording Steve.
Here in Middle TN it seems there was simply a gradual advancement to more and more sophisdticated cultures. "Sudden" change might simply be explained by a gap in archeological evidence (a lot of gaps here, despite good efforts). Here these are the recognized "cultures" of humans. Each culture managed reasonably well to adapt to hunting a different type of beastie, perhaps for a generation lamenting the loss of their favorite BBQ meat, the mastodon:
Paleo Indians 13,000 YBP- 10,000 YBP (Clovis?)
Archaic Period 10,000 YBP to 3,000 YBP (with enough data to subdivide into Early, Middle, and Late. "Middle" coincides with the Altithermal period (8,000-4,000 YBP) and " Late" with the apex of the Altithermal period.
Woodland Period Culture 3,000 YBP to 800 AD (beginning of agriculture on a more serious level)
Mississippian Culture 800AD to 1,450 AD (beginning of "Little Ice Age"). Marked by sophisticated city-like villages, advanced horticulture, religeous practices.
No indication that the transition from one culture to the next was abrupt or that there was any hiatus of consequence. The Mississippian Cuture (here called "Mound Builders") simply split up in Middle Tennessee about 1450 AD to two groups-the ones that went east became Cherokees, the ones that went west became Chickasaws.
So much for all of this. This is all I know. This has truly been a "change of subject"!
BB
Here in Middle TN it seems there was simply a gradual advancement to more and more sophisdticated cultures. "Sudden" change might simply be explained by a gap in archeological evidence (a lot of gaps here, despite good efforts). Here these are the recognized "cultures" of humans. Each culture managed reasonably well to adapt to hunting a different type of beastie, perhaps for a generation lamenting the loss of their favorite BBQ meat, the mastodon:
Paleo Indians 13,000 YBP- 10,000 YBP (Clovis?)
Archaic Period 10,000 YBP to 3,000 YBP (with enough data to subdivide into Early, Middle, and Late. "Middle" coincides with the Altithermal period (8,000-4,000 YBP) and " Late" with the apex of the Altithermal period.
Woodland Period Culture 3,000 YBP to 800 AD (beginning of agriculture on a more serious level)
Mississippian Culture 800AD to 1,450 AD (beginning of "Little Ice Age"). Marked by sophisticated city-like villages, advanced horticulture, religeous practices.
No indication that the transition from one culture to the next was abrupt or that there was any hiatus of consequence. The Mississippian Cuture (here called "Mound Builders") simply split up in Middle Tennessee about 1450 AD to two groups-the ones that went east became Cherokees, the ones that went west became Chickasaws.
So much for all of this. This is all I know. This has truly been a "change of subject"!
BB