German silver

fishbugman · Post by **fishbugman** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:08 pm

I probably should go here, ouch, oh well. I was asked today how to tell if a reel is German Silver and in another thread, an ORCA member claimed to have a Pennell reel that was German Silver and plated with german silver. Can anyone explain in a paragraph or less how to tell if a reel part is german silver? As we know, just because one part of reel is german silver doesn't mean all parts are german silver...IE the Horton Simplex 33 reels I have seen in 1)all german silver and with 2) screw on side plates and spool GS and tube frame in nickel plated brass.

snoekjaeger · Post by **snoekjaeger** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:32 pm

As far as I know German silver is all-the-way one material (the material being an alloy of nickel, copper, and zinc), when there is wear and tear you will still see "German silver" and nothing else underneath it.
When a reel (or part) is plated, you will see after some time of use/rubbing/scratching the material underneath the "silver-"plating, usually brass will show. The brass is the main component the reel or part is made of, just covered with a layer of Silverlike stuff by the plating process. Jean-Paul

m3040c · Post by **m3040c** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:28 am

As far as I know, German Silver or Brass can be plated with the same process. The Pennell reel that is mentioned here is plated with nickle not German silver, German Silver may or may not be the base metal. In the 1930's Ocean City made many reels thst stated on the side plate and in the catalogs that they were made of German Silver, Chromium Plated. I have a Ike Walton OC that is stamped like that. The only way I know how to tell the difference between German Silver and Brass is by the colors. German Silver is closer to the color of silver while Brass is closer to the color of copper or gold. I tend to think that German Silver is a more expensive alloy than brass and that is why brass is used in most reels made after the 1930's. Brass may also be an easier metal to machine and work with.

fishbugman · Post by **fishbugman** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:39 am

I think this is an excellent example of a reel made with some parts German Silver and other parts Chromium plated brass. Of the handfuls I have seen or owned, I CANNOT remember one where I would say every part was made from german silver. I think the reference in the Ocean City catalogs probably would be better worded as "some parts german silver/other parts are chromium plated brass". Ocean City also provides the worst example of the quality and content of ingredients that make german silver...there are obviously different compositions.

m3040c · Post by **m3040c** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:04 am

Well it seems German Silver is a can of worms. It can have many different metals used to create it, the constant being copper and nickle. Copper and nickle alone make German Silver but zinc is often added. When zinc is added it becomes a 3 element alloy and copper and nickle alone creates a 2 element alloy. In fishing reel use, a high proportion of zinc (27%) added to the mix of 55% copper and 18% nickle would make a alloy that is more resistant to corrosion and be strong enough for the punishment a reel needs to take.

I have a number of Ocean City reels from the 1930's. Some are plated German Silver and some are unplated German Silver and "fishbugman" is right. None are 100% unplated German Silver, I do have a Ike Walton OC that comes close. I would say everything on the reel is unplated German Silver except the free spool lever, which is plated and may or may not be German Silver. Just because it is plated does not mean it is not German Silver. German Silver takes electroplating beautifully, as seen in any silverware set that has been silver plated. As a matter of fact, German Silver, which dates to the 1700's, started to become widely used when it was discovered how well it takes plating.

About the only thing positive that can be said about German Silver is that it has no silver in it. After that the alloy has many types.

Post by **john elder** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:07 am

Yo, RAM...deja vu...all over again, eh?

the Deak

RAM · Post by **RAM** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:13 am

Here's another interesting element of the nickel silver enigma (come up with a better word and I'll use it). Pflueger, in the 1930s, advertised their Summit as "Polished Diamolite on Highly Ornamented Nickel Silver". The rascals covered it up, so beauty was not their first concern in using it. Hmmmm!
(Diamolite was their trade name for an extra heavy chromium plating).
Way back in aught 16 they used the term "Silverine", which was indeed a nickel silver plate, like on the Supreme, Regal, Advance, Buckeye, Guardian.

Someone wrote an article on Pflueger finishes for the Reel News once didn't they?
Bad Bob

m3040c · Post by **m3040c** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:38 am

Yea an enigma, great word, I love enigmas, my wife is an enigma.

Anyways, German Silver is a marketing metal. Its good stuff, looks like silver and has the word "Silver" as part of its name so it is going to fool a lot of people. Actually, it is simply a copper alloy like brass and bronze. What a great discovery it must have been. Lets see;;

Bronze= copper and tin

Brass= copper and zinc

German silver= copper and nickle

All very similar and all the same base, so why all the raving about German Silver, aka Nickle Silver, aka New Silver. At least the Chinese where honest about when they discovered it, they called it Paktong which translates to White Bronze but they used it to imatate Sterling Silver. Basically were all love German Silver because it has allowed us Plebs to have stuff that appears to be rich at a fraction of the cost.

/And then there is Diamolite! WOW,that stuff must be a super weathy metal. Must be made with diamonds and gold and such when in actually it is chrome plating pure and simple. The best chrome I have ever seen on a fishing reel was on the Mitchell Garcia white, salt water conventionals and you know what they called it. They called it "Chrome Plating", ya think they could have been more creative than that maybe

Len Sawisch · Post by **Len Sawisch** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:59 am

. . . this is such a fun topic!

First off, Chrome is clear - it has no color. It provides a very hard and smooth finish over whatever you "chrome."

Second, you can plate brass with an alloy. So all those folks with "nickel silver" enscribed on their Marhoff reels take note - that's still a plated brass reel! Yes, some early Marhoffs were 'solid' alloys but most models were alloy-plated brass.

Third, brass is copper and zinc, so adding nickel makes it nickel brass if you are a metallurgist.

Finally, while nickel brass alloys have had many names, in my experience in the reel community the higher the nickel count, the more likely a reel is to be called 'nickel silver' because it has a sharper or crisper silver look. The less nickel, the softer the look (almost a gold tone from higher copper percentage), the more likely to be called "German silver."

The South Bend 1131 I believe used the same basic nickel brass alloys for years, and was advertised at different times as being German silver, Nickel silver, and during the first World War, Liberty silver. And the head cap and tail plate are different alloys from the screws and pillars - which is why you find some with badly pitted plates but lovely pillars - which is a lot easier to write than to say - unless you hang out with Steve Vernon!

Thanks for letting me play with you guys!

Len

Steve · Post by **Steve** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:55 pm

Pitted plates and pillars
Pitted plates and pillars
Pitted plates and pillars
Pitted plates and pillars
Plitted plates and pillars
Plitted pates and pillars
Plitted pates and plillars
Plitted plates and pillarth
Oh, pith.

Ron Mc · Post by **Ron Mc** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:59 pm

as a metallurgist, nickel silver is brass with 15% to 18% nickel added. Much more nickel than that, it's Monel.

(sorry Len, I had a brain fart - hey, I'm too young for that - meant to say Monel. Muntz metal is high zinc brass that work hardens very easily and was used heavily before WWI because of this property)

Len Sawisch · Post by **Len Sawisch** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:00 pm

Thanks Ron, so here are my questions:
1. Are there Muntz metal reels out there?
2. Does that 15% to 18% relate to the 'soft' to 'crisp' continuum or does some other aspect of the alloy produce that affect. And
3. In your experience, is their any real concern about the exposure to nickel? I heard somewhere that they want to outlaw the use of nickel silver (brass nickel?) in jewelry because of skin allergies?

PS - Steve, that's BADLY pitted plates BUT lovely pillars - you got to get the whole thing going!

Ron Mc · Post by **Ron Mc** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:34 pm

there definately was Monel reel - it was stamped on the side - a surf reel made in CA, but I didn't make a note of the maker...sorry

the crystal structure of fcc metals - copper, nickel, also nonmagnetic stainles steel (which contains enough nickel and manganese to make the fcc crystal structure stable at room temperature) - makes for a large number of "slip systems" in the crystal lattice. That is, within each crystal, atomic planes readily shear (slip) allowing the crystal to deform.
vs. bcc magnetic iron and steel, where slip in the crystals is very limited, and inerstitial (smaller) atoms such as carbon can pin those slip planes to harden the metal. (iron is hot-worked by heating it into the range where it transforms into fcc and is very ductile, then the transformation to bcc on cooling hardens it)
In fcc metals, most of the hardening comes from cold work - straining the crystals by cold forming (while you get some of the same effect in wrought bcc steels, the effect of strain-hardening is much more pronounced in fcc metals).
So hardened brasses are heavily cold-worked. Heat treating - annealing - relieves the strain, relaxing and softening the metal.

When brasses corrode, the nickel and zinc salt out and the copper is plated back on the surface - which is why you see these alloys turning pink after long-time corrosion. So yes, I can believe that the nickel salts coming from corrosion of the jewelry could be an allergen.

Steve · Post by **Steve** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:16 pm

http://www.smithmetal.com/products/nickelsilver.htm
http://orcaonline.org/images/pixel.gif? ... alloys.htm
http://www.metalreference.com/Forms_Copper_Alloy.html
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/nickel-allergy/DS00826

P.S. http://reeltalk.orcaonline.org/viewtopic.php?t=1703

Post by **john elder** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:59 pm

my head hurts

Post by **Brian F.** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:38 pm

Just consider it excersize, JE. Seems like we go through these discussions every other year or so. And now that the board contains 20,224 articles, it is really a daunting task to search for stuff. Even if everyone did that before asking a question, the volume of stuff that comes up with a search is many times overwhelming. It ends up being just easier to ask a lot of the time.

Ron Mc · Post by **Ron Mc** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:37 am

john elder wrote:my head hurts

it's been strain-hardened

Post by **john elder** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:54 am

...and my crystal lattice is definitely shifted.

Ron Mc · Post by **Ron Mc** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:59 am

you meant slipped.

Post by **john elder** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:09 am

Len Sawisch · Post by **Len Sawisch** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:11 pm

I appreciate the explanation - it sure beats hell out of Wikipedia - and from now on I'm going to concentrate on hard rubber reels!

el Lawrence · Post by **el Lawrence** » Sun Mar 18, 2007 5:24 pm

OH OH... can I? I still have 2 cents on this one too!

(AND YES! Inquiring minds will find me located in the same place at the same numbers, really thought I got that renewal in in time...)

Outlaw nickel in jewelry making? They would have to start a new formula for the alloy of most sterling silver as it has nickel too (which most folks react to by turning their skin green), this is not however really a true allergic reaction but rather the combination of high acid content in their sweat reacting with the nickel, it can look ugly and make for a bad environment in places that are pierced-more or less it is really contact corrosion of the skin, not what most doctors would call a true allergy and for sure not a major health threat (unless you were to get someting made from one of these metals implanted...). The jewelry company I once worked at prided itself on making their sterling alloy with no nickel for that very reason. However they still plated their silver with rhodium for ear posts and such and on chains. The Rhodium was "cleaner" for the pierced skin (a tricky thing to put metal through damaged skin anywhere; even 14K gold will cause adverse reactions in some folks due to it being an alloyed metal too...) and on chains due to the tarnish factor; just hard to clean so the Rhodium plate fixed that too...

As Ron has started to suggest there are a multitude of formulas for alloy of bronze, brass, and various "white" alloy such as the German Silver (that has no silver). Many of these were used and developed for the jewelry trade as cheap substitutes for real silver.

On the soft/crisp look I imagine the copper content plays a big part... the nickel is really there to lend the "white" or silver color to the alloy, as would be the zinc to some percent. Though the zinc isn't too salt water friendly; consider it's use for cathodic protection on ship hulls and pipelines as corrosion "slaves"... as for things depositing on the surface of these alloys in the form of corrosion; remember this is a tiny microscopic layer thinner than plate and usually can be polished out or back to the origional surface in most cases unless it is really thin plate that has worn through. I can remember us using the commercial silver replacement under the name NuSilver (just another company name for nickel silver of some varitety) in HS art class for jewelry making due to it being cheaper and more durable than silver... the "White Brass" is more of a light color brass alloy; used for casting items that would have once been called "pot metal" in the antiques trade (small sculptures, lamp bases, drawer pulls, etc.) where a more "silver" look was desired.

Ok now my head is spinning... Or maybe it is reeling... OH maybe Spinning reel-ing! Yeah! Ouch!

Steve · Post by **Steve** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:11 am

Here's another nickel alloy that I'd never heard of before seeing this mark on a reel:

One source said it's 45% nickel, 54% copper and 1% manganese, used mostly for watchcases. "Silverode" was the Philadelphia Watch Case Co.'s brand name for the alloy. The nickel content is higher than those of the German silvers, lower than that of Monel (http://www.lenntech.com/Monel.htm).
And furthermore: http://reeltalk.orcaonline.org/viewtopic.php?t=3766

SilasTerry · Post by **SilasTerry** » Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:13 pm

Here is a reel made out of "Kentucky Silver", which is an alloy of copper, nickle, chewing tobacco, and moonshine...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... B:EF:US:11

I wonder if the seller knows about the connection to the motorcycle company and how much more valuable the reel is because of it?

Hmmm... maybe someone should let him know?

Dan

German silver

German silver

Ocean City german silver,chromium plated

All together now . . .

and . . .

Thanks