Pflueger Diamond P ?

[David M]

Attention Pflueger masters: For some unknown reason, I've always assumed that E.A. Pflueger only used the diamond P design on a few Portage products during his parting of the ways from the Pfamily, and then on into the Enterprise reconciliation. But, I recently found out that E.A. also utilized that same diamond P design on an original sales card that held a decorative glass horse harness rosette, which I thought came many years before. That's quite a span of years, so I guess what I'm asking in a roundabout way is...does anyone have any idea what year this hook sample card (8 5/8" X 4 5/8") was produced. Maybe what I should be asking is...when did Pflueger start using that target logo. I'm stumped! Thanks for looking.

- David

[Rick H]

Dave...Don't know when they started using it, but it is definitely pre-Bulldog.
(See date in bottom right corner) Captured off Web.

[john elder]

Not sure patent date is any indicator, Rick! that globe could have come much later, although the maroon box is probably a better way to date things than the patent...what was the cut-off date for that box?

[Rick H]

Good point John... Duh!

Back to diggin' deeper...

[Rick H]

Here's some more muddled pieces David...
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According to Rob Pavey (Lure guy)...
"I tend to think of the bulldog as being around the time of neverfail hardware - maybe the 1913-17 era, and the target logo as being earlier.
But there also seems to have been some overlap. there was a good article some years back in the NFLCC magazine that sorted all this out, but I didn't digest it completely enough to know the exact years.
I do believe the maroon boxes came to an end by 1921, if that helps. Sorry I cant be more precise.
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I'll chat with Harv Mussleman and see if he can dig-up that NFLCC Article.

[Rick H]

Here's some help David...

Wayne Ruby's Book on Pflueger, states that the Bulldog Trademark started in 1914 or 1915. There were Maroon Lure Boxes with the Green Pflueger Trademark from 1909-1914. And more Maroon Lure Boxes with the Bulldog Trademark 1915 - late 1920's.

But it still doesn't answer the question on the start and end of the "Target Trademark". Consensus is that the Target was pre-Bulldog though.

[Ron Mc]

Here's some help David...

Wayne Ruby's Book on Pflueger, states that the Bulldog Trademark started in 1914 or 1915. There were Maroon Lure Boxes with the Green Pflueger Trademark from 1909-1914. And more Maroon Lure Boxes with the Bulldog Trademark 1915 - late 1920's.

But it still doesn't answer the question on the start and end of the "Target Trademark". Consensus is that the Target was pre-Bulldog though.

I believe those dates are correct. 1915 is generally the date where Pflueger started putting marks of any kind on reels.

great stuff, guys.

[David M]

Thanks for all of your help Rick, that's good info. The only book I've located so far that tried to give a definitive answer regarding the diamond P logo was in my opinion wrong. It was in one of my 80s tackle books by Carl Luckey. It stated that the "P" was for "Pardee". I loosely understand the whole storied Fred Pardee/Pflueger thing with the Kent Floater lure, but Pflueger used that logo for many other none Pardee items, so that doesn't make much sense, at least to me. You really have to take some of those early tackle books with a grain of salt.

I also re-read the premier issue from exactly twenty years ago of the N.F.L.C.C. magazine, because of the fantastic article on Pardee, Pflueger, and Kent lures written by Dick Wilson. But, still there was no real answer as to why some Kent frog lures had a diamond P on their props. BTW, the fishing lure club had its very first meeting at the local college, about a mile away from where I'm sitting right now, kind of neat.

I did find one possible lead, although it doesn't help with dates. If you go to this very well done site listed below, and scroll down about halfway, you'll see a pre-Pflueger owned American Fish Hook Co. box (photo #9), with a diamond shaped logo that has an "A" in it. Maybe Pflueger simply liked the looks of that from years earlier, and wanted to carry on the tradition. Just a hunch! I guess what I really need is Dr. Todd's Pflueger, or fish hook book.

http://www.ronnlucassr.com/hook-us.htm

- David

[Rick H]

Wow...That is a NICE Site! Classy and GREAT pics! That Diamond A is an interesting oddity. You have sharp eyes! There's a reason we keep digging into this stuff...It's a challenge to pin down an answer and while yer trying, more questions surface!

[Ron Mc]

agreed, awesome collection.
I have a bunch of Allcocks (I mostly collect Redditch tackle).
One of my favorites is this this Milward's needle case (made it into Dr. Todd's book)
We think of Redditch as the tackle capital, but it was really the needle capital.
Needles and fish hooks just naturally go together or, more accurately, come from the same place.

[Jerry J in OK]

E.A Pflueger broke away from Enterprise from around 1906-13 and formed the E.A. Pflueger Co. The Diamond P Trademark was granted to E.A. on Nov. 5, 1907.

The Bulldog Trademark was granted October 19, 1915 after E.A. went back but it may not have been granted to him per se.

Hope this little bit o finfo helps.

Jerry

[Jerry J in OK]

Forgot to say that the Diamond P and Bulldog Trademarks could have been used a little prior to the actuall granting date

[David M]

Hey Jerry, thank you for the trademark dates. I have the sneaky suspension that the diamond P was used for quite some time before it was trademarked. E. A. might have trademarked it just to keep the little brothers from using it when they split up; the timing is about right. Especially, since Enterprise brought suit against the E.A. Pflueger Co. and E.A. personally following the split to restrain them from the using the Pflueger name. If the brothers were willing to allow their own father to be put in a mental asylum in 1900, one can only imagine the full lengths they would go to further fragment the family later on, sad! A few months ago I put together a wild story about how and why I believe the brothers rejoined forces again in 1913-14, along with a few possibilities of how some their early reels received their names, all based on convincing real world facts. But, the dang thing has gotten so long and out of hand, I don't know what to do with it. Most of all, I'm trying to find more proof to back up my hypothesis, but tracking down unknown Pflueger info is next to impossible. Someday it will come together.

Ron, I really like your ornate Milward's needle case, that little pointing hand cracks me up for some reason. One of my favorite non-reel thingamajigs is a very well made wooden line dryer that has "Milward's Patent - Made in England" stamped on the extendable reel mount.

Speaking of pointing hands, that reminds me of a neat photo I ran across a while back that had one of those popular for the era pointing hand advertising signs. It might just be, at least to my limited knowledge, one of, if not the oldest photo of something Pflueger related. It's was shot on Howard Street in Akron Ohio in the 1880s. From combing through records, I found that the sign sat on Ernest F. Pfluegers lot, which later belonged to son Joseph. Howard Street was Akron's main roadway in the 19th century, and Mr. Pflueger knew to take advantage of it. The hand is pointing towards the location of Enterprise Mfg., which was just across the canal and up the hill about a thousand feet. This is really off subject, but what the heck.



Howard Street - Akron, Ohio 1880s



1891 Akron plat



1910 Akron plat

- David