ORCA Convention Fishing Contests

Reel Geezer · Post by **Reel Geezer** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:48 am

The Board of Directors has voted to adapt WWII, or the early 1940's, as the cut off date for fishing tackle to be used in ORCA Fishing Contests. As I sorted through a few tackle boxes over the weekend, I wondered about JA Coxe 25 reels. Can you Coxe collector's tell me if a narrow spool 25N-2 reel fulfills the rules? I assume that reel models that were manufactured before the cut-off date are allowed, even though a particular example might not be.

Incidentally, the rods must be of steel or bamboo, lures must be pre-1940 also (no plastic's allowed, so leave home your Luny Frogs), and line must be braided for next year's contest.

orourke · Post by **orourke** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:51 am

Phil:

I don't have any paper pre 1950 on the Coxe 25n. So I can't prove your 25n-2 was made pre war. I don't even have a 25n-2. However, one of my 25n's is stamped 39.

I agree the 25n was made pre war and you should be able to use it in the tournament.

I also have an ad that shows a 25n still in production in 1959. I am sure the later reels are marked Bronson Reel Company as opposed to J.A. Coxe Reel Company.

Dave

Post by **Brian F.** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:37 pm

Does that cut-off date also apply to spinning reels and the glass rods that were allowed previously?

Reel Geezer · Post by **Reel Geezer** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:28 pm

Future contests will not allow any spinning tackle unless made before 1940 (I guess you could use a Malloch reel). All fiberglass rods are now illegal in our contest. The original idea of these contests was to give our members an idea of what fishing was like back in "the Good Ole Days". It's not necessarily to see how many fish you can catch, but to enjoy an outing with classic tackle. If those interested will just go out and put together a typical outfit (and it should be very inexpensive) and practice with it a bit, many will find the tackle was quite efficient.

Post by **Brian F.** » Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:44 pm

Better get onto some tackle so's I can start practicing my backlash with those itty bitty reels. Otherwise I'll be hurling some pike and musky lures with my vom Hofe 4/0 on (or across) the lake (I'd guess trolling is illegal too?).

Seriously though, I have nothing to use right now in terms of rods so can anyone recommend a rod I should keep an eye out for? I don't even know what kind of lures I'll be using, Ha! I'm thinking more like bamboo vs. steel to use with something like a Supreme or Summit. I'm a Pflueger guy but will not hesitate to jump ship if those Coxe's are legal since I already have a 25 and 25-3. Will they be legal?

Reel Geezer · Post by **Reel Geezer** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:28 am

There are lots of fine steel rods that can be found everywhere. They're common in yard sales and on eBay. Bristol and Richardson seem to be the most common. I believe that GEP tubular rods are my favorites as a using rod. Finding an inexpensive bamboo casting rod is not so easy. Bass Orenos, vamps, Lucky 13s, Johnson Silver Minnows, etc. should all be legal lures and easy to find. Maybe we can find some lure collectors who would donate chipped lures to an ORCA pool where we could have lures available for members. A request for same on Joe Yates message board might come up with some lures that are not collectible and could be used as is, or repainted.

joe klaus · Post by **joe klaus** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:51 am

Brian:

I will gladly lend you just about anything you want/need (with exception of spinning reels). I'm not sure if my Baby Vamp will qualify but it's the only older model spinning reel I have.

That won't help you with the necessary daily practice to enable yourself to compete with Reel Geezer, but you can't beat the convenience. If you like, you can email me:

I plan on spending at least one half my time between now and the end of the year at my "fish camp" in a remote area on the texas coast. But I'll
be back in Houston at least once a week. I mention that only because if you email me, it may be a week or so before I respond. But I will do it.

cws/carl schultz · Post by **cws/carl schultz** » Tue Sep 21, 2004 11:51 pm

i guess im not surprised at this new decision of pre war tackle after having participated in 3 of the contests what i looked forward to was reliving my good old days[not someone elses] these were the 50s when i was a kid fishing the detroit river[this was when the river by the rouge plant would occasionally catch fire] these fishing outings were meant to be fun and give everyone the opportunity to use some of thier favorite tackle and personally i dont see the need to start getting all hung up with a bunch of rules dealing with old tackle now eliminating plastic is a broad statement use metal as an example i can go to walmart and buy a daredevil and its the same as one 70 years old johnson spoon the same and others so apparently age was not a real factor here sounds like the same old attitude some have against any thing post war also no mention as to weither fly rods can be used when milt was the first to think of it in lansing i thought it was great just another way to enjoy the sport of fishing now before any jump up and down that i must only want to use later stuff for casting non level wind i use a heddon 3-15 abl and 3-25 level wind on a heddon and a montague bam boo rods and for fishing 2 unmarked bamboo casting rods with shakespeare sport casts [hd ] all im trying to say is why is it nessesary to start limiting peoples options i would hope there are no plans to start adding prise money to the mix in the late 70s when i started bass tournaments its was a friendly laid back experience then as more and more money became involved it just got more and more cut throat even at a club level so i guess i have harped enough only one more question
DO I HAVE TO USE 60 YEAR OLD PORKRIND? carl schultz

Post by **Brian F.** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 3:45 am

Joe: Thanks for the kind offer to help with tackle. I may need to take you up on the lure thing. I got a couple of reels and some baits to start with here but just need a rod to try them on. I'll be trolling for one or two to get comfortable with in the meantime.

Phil: thanks for the names, it's a start for me. I'll try that request thing later. Now I just have to learn how to cast a reel.

Seriously lacking in familiarity here with the bass fishing department, much less antique lures and rods. Any suggestions as to what a beginner should try in terms of rod length, action and which model rod would fit that? For reels, I have a Pflueger Akron, Coxe 25-3 (if it's legal), and a Horton Meek Bluegrass (although that may not actually see the light of day). Maybe I'll try to add a Pflueger Supreme or Summit.

I guess if we're talking BIG BASS here, I got a few no eye Bass Orenos to practice with. Open to trying some metal spinners (were they weedless then?).

I'm all for the Pre-war thing and am game to get into fishing with the tackle from whatever era. I do agree with Carl though, the definition of "old" is, ahem, a perspective.

One more question, where can I get braided line? Hey, don't laugh, we're starting from ground zero (ok, maybe plus .5) here!

orourke · Post by **orourke** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:11 am

Brian's question got me thinking. When I buy old reels, many have old line on them. The monofilament line I just discard, the braided lines I usually take off and wind around a notched piece of lath. Would this line ever be of value to anyone other than as a decorative item?

I know when unspooling some of my reels the line has been married on a number of occasions. While the knots can be quite small I still would think they would have a negative effect on the cast.

That is all guess work as I have never fished a level wind. I am from Carl's generation.

Do I have line someone can use or do I have decorator items?

Dave

Harvey · Post by **Harvey** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:40 am

My Two Cents!
Not to bump heads with the ORCA Board but I believe this is a bad idea of limiting it to things made before WW2. If this is the case, I also think that you must wear Bib Overhalls and Brogan shoes. Or better yet, how about a suit and a tie as seen in some of the ol' time pictures. What about the knots that you tie? Some of the most commom knots weren't invented untill the introduction of Mono line. Also I am sure that the ones entering the contests will use a pre 1940 landing net. What about the boats that some will prefer to use? I can see it now! Joe Klaus rowing while Brian cast. Don't forget the lifevest. I am sure that a life saving device made in 1938 would pass Coast Guard inspection. Come on guys, get real. Things made in the sixties are getting old just as some members that were born then are. My opinion is that the limits on age of tackle kills the sprit of the fellowship that our club promotes. If you want to use a 100 year old reel then use it but I would think most wouldn't be in favor of it.
I will admit that Phil would look good in 60 year old waders and a straw hat but I don't think it is nessary for us to have a good time.
"H"

Reel Geezer · Post by **Reel Geezer** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:45 am

Now Carl… The idea of the ORCA Antique Fishing Tackle Contest is to experience what it was like to fish before a set date. (The Board chose WWII as a logical date). It was not to allow each member to relive his childhood. I annually enjoy reliving mine by fishing for bluegill with a cork and worms. It is great and I love it.

I know you must still get red in the face when you remember some old geezer back seating you in your neat “Bassmaster Classic” bass boat back in Pennsylvania. You, Lenny and I had a great time and that Al Foss bait proved to be a killer (I won’t confess how many fish I caught to win the contest). You used pre-1940 tackle back then and it had no bearing on having fun.

Next year we’ll all have fun and frustrations fishing with the tackle your grandpa used. I find great enjoyment just putting together a tackle box to use during the contest. Sure you can use that Johnson Silver Minnow. So what! It was a great weedless bait back in the 30’s and still is today. Surely you can find plenty of non-plastic baits. Just come out and have fun.

If Milt wants to use a fly rod – that’s no problem. Just use bamboo or steel, with a reel that dates before 1940. Use your silk line and try to have fly patterns that were in vogue before 1940. Dan Brock fished in Washington with such a fly outfit. I don’t think anyone plans to carbon date this stuff.

Maybe I'll bring along a Henshall bass rod and appropriate 1880-90 reel this year and whip you all. After all, aren't all today's professional fishermen going to longer rods? Nothin's new, Carl. Just the materials. Maybe I'll even wear a coat and tie to fish in. Now wouldn't that be something? I haven't worn a tie since I got married.

Dave: Someone should be able to use your line if it is 12 pound test or thereabouts. I spool all my using reels with line that was removed from old reels, and have found it to be quite satisfactory.

Reel Geezer · Post by **Reel Geezer** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 1:09 pm

Harvey and I wrote our messages at the same time, and I did not read his message before I wrote my answer to Carl. Harvey, I really don't understand your message. If not 1940, what do you suggest. If 1960 must we all have pre-1960 landing nets, and wear bell bottoms, tie died shirts and sandels? An arbritary date has to be set. We just happened to choose WWII because it was a date that clearly defined tackle. After WWII there were great changes - fiberglass rods, spinning tackle, etc. It becomes very blurry during the late 1940s and 50s.

I'm sure that if the members don't like this rule it can be changed to suit the majority. If someone has a clear suggestion, I'm sure the board would like to hear it. I didn't make the rule, I just started this string so that I could learn the status of my Coxe 25N.

Incidentally, I just put a coat of varnish and wrapped a small break on a Henshall style rod. Now I'm about to string up a 1880's vom Hofe multiplier to use on it.

See you in Texas.

joe klaus · Post by **joe klaus** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:22 pm

I think most of us reel collectors are so darned hard headed and independent that we have a general dislike of any and all rules of any nature, all of the time.

And while I certainly fit into the category of folks I described above, I must say that I'm 100% in favor of the "cut-off" date. It all makes perfectly good sense to me.

I'm out to "take care of" the old Reel Geezer

joe klaus · Post by **joe klaus** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:24 pm

This is a "p.s." to my post immediately above.

You guys wouldn't stand a chance if ya'll let me get into the 50's and rig up with one of my ambassadeur 5000's

Post by **Brian F.** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:46 pm

Peace and Love

The tournament's gonna be cosmic, man (or is that Kosmic?)

Didn't mean to start a war but I'm glad I found out about the rules early because I'm going to need A LOT of time to practice! I agree with Phil, it will be fun to gather up the tackle (once I find out what it is I need). Now I just need to explain to my wife why I need MORE tackle!

Harvey · Post by **Harvey** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 3:46 pm

Picture from the last ORCA fishing tournment!

Post by **john elder** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:57 pm

hey, fellas, since I have never managed to make the show and get in this thing, I have no business saying anything...but then again, that's never stopped me before.

Seems to me since so much $ and prestige is riding on this that you could use whatever old tackle you chose, but there would be different categories of winners...i.e., pre-1940 and 1940-1960, for example. Two bags of Cheetos for the pre-1940 and one bag for the newbies. That way, everyone has their own version of fun and you spread the joy.

As with Phil's Q re the Coxe reel, probably the most constructive thing to come from this is learning the dates of the tackle that allow it to qualify...i would love to try to use a Pfl summit with the freespool..what a sweet reel! but I'm not sure when the freespool came along, so now I have to do some homework.

Brian...don't spend real money on a rod...most of us have about 20 rods that would qualify lying in the basement...for the price of postage, we'll take care of you!

Post by **Brian F.** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:58 pm

This is all pretty funny, thanks Harv!

Dave: I guess I could use some of your line. Preferably without knots if you have a length to fit on an Akron or my Horton Meek

cws/carl schultz · Post by **cws/carl schultz** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:47 pm

as far as line goes i have always taken it off the reels i buy with an electric drill and spool it on a wood dowel and kept it just cant ever seem to throw away anything but also never buy a reel from me with line on it[there is a reason its still there] why i mentioned the cut off originaly is that it just arbitarily eliminates spinning tackle and like it or not that is where some of the future[and also present ben] reel collectors will be coming from so maybe its not so far fetched to have 2 classes[we have 3 in the casting or was that changed too] pre war,post war and joe your 5000 doesnt scare me a bit[ha ha] and of course those elderly folks using that pre war stuff would have to be given a 10lb handicap [LOL] one thing i use for rough dating when in the field is pre zips [1964 i think] i have as a few others stated tackle to fish any cutoff you want[even one of those turn of the century 12' bamboo monsters and also some bamboo spinning rods ] all im saying is why limit your options and know what if you feel you need to use 80s,90,or what ever tackle it doesnt mater to me cuss your the one missing out phil as i recall in lansing you opted for a glass rod you had made since date had been set at pre 1970 tackle am going to try to get to texas next year and drive so i can bring my boat and if so i will be going fishing one way or another[even that funny tasting water joe] also if there are soom who are short on what ever the cutoff i have a bunch of stuff i can bring to loan out hey harvey has that wind stopped blowing yet? carl

wallypm · Post by **wallypm** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:44 am

OK the cut off of WW II is OK but why are you saying no plastic lures. Most flap rig River Runts were pre WW II and many of my Runts date back to 1933. Your going to OK reels between 1933 and WW II but not lures? I think we need to be consistant...

Reel Geezer · Post by **Reel Geezer** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:48 pm

Boy, All I asked was a question about a Coxe reel, and I'm catching it from all sides. I'd suggest that you set up a committee and draw up a set of rules that you would like and present them to Andy Foster, ORCA President. I tried to put up an advance notice of what you would need to fish with, and all there has been are complaints. Most from people that have never fished one of our contests. I don't understand it, for the purpose of these contests is to experience fishing with antique tackle. Not the tackle you are using today, or used a few years ago. If that's what you want why even have a contest?

Walt. I think it is quite consistent to say WWII and no plastics. Those are two separate rules. How could you get any clearer. I don't care if your plastics are made in 1900 - they are illegal. Then we don't have to inspect hook hangers, etc. to see if your plastic lure is pre-WWII or not. Who want's to spend fishing time arguing about tackle. But if you guys want to argue tackle, I'd suggest you set it down in writing and send it to Andy.

And I don't want to spend any more time discussing this, so if you have any more questions about the rules adopted, please send them to Andy. I'm going fishing.

Jim Madden · Post by **Jim Madden** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:46 pm

Besides family and friends, the two most important things in an ORCAn's life are fishing and antique tackle not necessarily in that order. When you put the two together, especially, there's bound to be some discussion and rightfully so. Believe me, the board mulled all of this over in many emails. The language in the guidelines calls for the formation of a "Tackle Evaluation Committee" made up of the convention host and/or the tournament director to answer questions regarding approved tackle. I'm sure those individuals would allow volunteers to help, but it would appear to me that the committee needs to be up and running for those who need to acquire tackle. Phil's question on the Coxe reel would be directed to the committee. The "no plastics" clause is easy and without exception, but reel language states that reels must be "introduced prior to 1940." Like Phil, I wanted to check on a reel. The Mitchell 300 which was first made in 1938 (first model). If I get a "no" on a later 300, I'll have to pretty much go out there with baitcast only, but I'll give it a try and have a good time. It sounds like the committee will be busy, but that's good. Those of us who fish the contest can give suggestions over a brew (which includes coffee) if we have suggestions for future years. I'll see if I can help get the committee going so that all fo this is just routine each year without the hard feelings. Jim

reels4me · Post by **reels4me** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:59 pm

WOwEE--After all the proceeding rhetoric and remembering Bre`r Rabbits
advice I`m gonna find myself a "laughin` place" on the nearby beach or
ground and enjoy all the frustrations of our 'cast' of members. Ho Ho !

SWIM JIG · Post by **SWIM JIG** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 1:31 pm

OK to answere Phils question the Coxe 25-n-2 was made between 1945-1947, This is from looking at a few New in the box ones, one in berlin ohio At reeds sport shop, and the other at herman Saxons that he uses, has 6 of them last one was 1946. thats what the sales slip shows. As for this old tackle, I would like to suggest that the rules as they are now established, be printed in the reel news for all to see. This is getting a tad complicated, seems as if anything will be too new beyond a Haskle Minnow! And as for a bambo flyrod they still make and sell them! How will we prove a time date? as for braided line , its still made as of today, ( must be explained ) Plastic lures, Ok however some were made before WW11 see great Tackle advs. 1874 to 1955 coppywright 1990 by Lary M .Smith portage mich. As for silk line WHERE IS IT? and the cost? or will we have to use old sticky fly line? and leaders? and flies? Heck I have hundreds of thousands of items All E-X Action Products Co. that came with the Co. when I biught it From Jack Masters! (Hey Jack anything you desined for Paw Paw going to be legal? the Whoota Frogs?) What Hooks? and those herb Dillys mad in Louisiana? after WW11? Steel rods Ok however to find a decent one will get expensive, American Fork And Hoe is still to be found at sales $4.50 up to $25.00 with extra shorter rods. As for fiberglass, yup! they made some before 1942, they were flat sided and split all the way down from the tip to the butt. How about swilvels? and other terminal tackle? What about wodden flat fish? The still made them untill 1972! As for Orchard rods ? well when was the cut off date for them ? pre or post WW11 and the Hurd Suppercasters? Of chicago gentilmen combos? It may be best to use only single acton piller reels with NO leavel wind! This complication is going to (in my thoughts) keep people from even going to the Nats! again print the ruels as they stand, and should changes be made do so before the spring issue. most of the members have never fished TEXAS! Me? I think I will go visit the kids, and get in some fishing time with GW.B senior and Barb at a Texas Tank, The Bass are trmedous near Clifton TX. Col. M. Lorens aka SWIM JIG your Ohio Conection