Question For All You Machinists Out There...................

[joe klaus]

I posted a question on the Ebay section of this site about a reel which is currently on eBay that has some characteristics of an Ocean City but is stamped on the front side plate "edward vom hofe maker".

Here is link to auction:
broken ... eName=WDVW

My question to the machinists is this:
Assuming that the edward vom hofe inscription on the front of this reel is "fake" (and I'm not necessarily saying that it is); and further assuming that the vom hofe stamp increases the value of the reel by $200.00; and assuming that logically this can only "work" one time if it's a sham;


Ultimately---is it "worth it" to go to all that trouble for $200.00? In other words, is $200.00 sufficient to compensate the machinist for the time and effort spent in order to put the vom hofe stamp on the front plate and do other minor things to "disguise" this reel?
joe klaus:

[clinton_beeler]

Look at the image of the maker's mark. I'm not pretending to know Vom Hofe reels, but if you look at the 'E' on the rim there is no shadow anywhere around it. Now look at the maker's mark. See the ridges around each letter? Are they all (EVH) that way or is this 'special'? It looks to me like the person who stamped each letter was standing with the letters face up and leaning the stamping dies away just a bit (could just be my old eyes).

How many auction sites are there? Who's to say there's only one of these?

Regards,
Clinton

[Reel Geezer]

Joe: There are some guys in Ohio that have been stamping "Winchester" on chisels, files, bait cans, etc., etc. for over 20 years. They are willing to stamp that on a $20 item, and as stated they have been doing it for over 20 years. There stuff appears on eBay constantly, and people keep buying it. Barnum was correct!

[Brian F.]

Joe,

If you look at it as a possible sham to make it look like a vom Hofe reel, my point posted in the other thread is that you would have to add the parts that don't look right. To me, these look like the foot, crank handle, crank nut and ratchet lock, knob, pillars and end caps. They appear to be vom Hofe parts to me (but I'm no expert) and they don't strike me as Montague or earlier Ocean City.

If you were to salvage these parts, I'm impressed that they happen to fit perfectly. If you were to have them made up, the cost could easily run over $200.

[joe klaus]

Phil: I understand what you're saying but would maintain that putting the Winchester stamp on a $20.00 item is "different" (in a number of ways) than going to the trouble of putting an edward vom hofe stamp on a reel like the one pictured.

Brian: I agree with what you say.

The "purpose" of my posting this question, and hoping for discussion, is an effort to learn more about the abilities of skilled artisans to duplicate. It's something that all of us need to keep a close eye on. Reproductions give me some concern-----whether it be screws, handles, foot or whatever. I want to arm myself with enough knowledge to be able to spot those when I need to.

I will share with you a conversation I had on Christmas eve with one of my cousins that is a machinist (I have 4 cousins that have all been machinists for more than 30 years and have had conversations with all of them). I asked my cousin, "If I brought you a screw from one of my pre-1910 german silver reels, and also brought you a bar or sheet of german silver to work with, could you duplicate that screw?"

Cousin: "what kind or size of screw are you talking about?"

Me: "just a small screw that would go in the side plate of a reel about the same size as an ambassadeur 5000"

Cousin answers (hesitating): "could I use stainless to work with?"

Me: "no, it would have to be german silver or nickel silver. I think you could get some either in a bar or in a flat sheet form."

Cousin: (probably worried that I'm going to ask him to make me a screw)
again hesitates and answers: "yeah, I could do it. What--you need a screw?"

Me: "naah. not really. I'm just trying to get an understanding of what's involved. Would it be "fairly easy" for you to do? ie., make that screw identical to original in every way so it could not be detected by "looking at it".

Answer: "no"

Me: "If you could make 200 or 300 at one time, all identical, and sell those screws for $5 each, would that make it feasible to do the job?"

Cousin does not answer me, so I continue.

Me: "I've heard there's a guy in the southeast part of the U.S., Kentucky I think, that makes german silver screws and sells them for 5 dollars a piece (me thinking that was pretty hefty price for one little screw)"

Cousin: "I don't know how he could do that for just $5.00 a piece. I don't believe I could make more than about 12 screws per hour"

Me: "I assume this is something that you would not really "want" to do. Is that right?"

Cousin: "yep. That's right. Not as easy as it sounds"

Me: "thanks. I'm trying to get some ideas on whether it's feasible for someone to make duplicate antique parts--and you've given me some information that's helpful".

It should be pointed out that I didn't have a screw with me to show him. And secondly, he doesn't collect antique reels and therefore doesn't have the inherent advantage(s) that a collector/machinist would have in making reproductions.

[Brian F.]

Joe,

I think I understand what you are trying to determine. There are people that can do anything in their garage. If the right person was doing it, I believe it could be very difficult to spot if things were duplicated, replaced, restored or replicated (pick the term).

If you find the right person, I believe that is when it will be cheap. I understand there is a pretty good following in the garage or home-size milliing machine hobby and many take making these kinds of things or little projects on as a challenge. Those are big "Ifs", however, as the problem is that the guys with the training and skill to do things manually and without a computer are disappearing rather fast.

I don't believe it would be worthwhile or economical if you tried to have things done commercially in a shop or regular business, unless someone does it "on the side". Anyway, that was only my experience after looking into the same question myself.

[Steve]

Before we're all swept up in "orcanoia:"
An almost-identical reel, along with its non-EVH, probably Montague, box, was sold in the July, 1987, Oliver auction for $115 (#947). The only visible difference between it and the one on eBay is that the Oliver reel may have had a replaced knob.

Another, with the right knob but without the box, sold for $160 at the July, 1986, Oliver auction (#341).

I'd post the pics, but they're copyrighted.

[SWIM JIG]

OK lets get with this , Joe as for your (CUZ) he is corect however 12 xs $5.00 is $60.00 per hr, and if ( no tax or product liabily ins needed only a set of tools and a place to work, Heck 40 hrs a week would be a nice paycheck! OK to the real problem , there are several ways to make parts , I will start with the average screw for a reel, 1 You can cut it on a lathe, that removes metal and weakens the screw, or you can roll it off a (screw making machine and they are FAST! about 35000 per hour, the treads are rolled on no loss of metal, (if any of you folks get a chance to see this operation do so, I got my look see at Lake ERIE Cap screw mfg in Cleveland Ohio,As only to a certain size can be rolled I remeber its about 5/8sth diamitor rest have to be cut. Now, in todays efforts there are companies that do make screws , nuts , and cap screws for other industrys , ie the camera trade, comercial sewing machine mfgs. and the repair of them, and the ( new reel mfg companies, Gun Screws , watch makers and clock makers, the list goes on, Heck Shakespere had many machines and made screws for a lot of companies besides reel makers, My mother-in-law now 91 years young worked at western automatic on a automatic screw making machine, she was on the 5/16 machine sae threads, Now for Joes Point , you tell a small company what you want and the type of material they will make it for you, Is it practicle ? Very much so, Do you think Von Hoff made their own? Probaly at first however I have been told that a company in Vermont made srews and Nuts for most of these small companies, A for instance < I dont make them unless its a have to case to do one reel, I buy these (fastners by the 100 , min quanity, be it PENN, Shakespere or others, One other type is the cast screw or as its called BLOW INJECTION of corse the threads have a lot to be desired. The avearge person including myself at first glance cannot tell a old one from a new one,as long as the metal color is about the same, Weigh it will give a better closeness all you need is a relaoding powder scale in grains and one can be purchased around $35.00 new, I trust this will expalin what is done in the business, am I a machinest by trade? NO I learned it in School and also do it for a hobby, would I do it for (Fraud or deception? never , its not worth the feeling that goes with being a cheat ! And I can ashure you folks there are a lot of honest members in our CLUB ie ORCA, that were and still can do anything with a in home shop, they like myself wont do it UNLESS its to get a reel working and then that part is well marked! With respect for our HOBBY, Col. Milton Lorens aka SWIM JIG your Ohio Conection,

[Harvey]

Guys, I know a couple guys that own C&S Machine Tool Company up by where I used to work and they specilize in parts for the aircraft industry. I will take a couple screws up to Carlos tomorrow and see what says about making some for me. I have had them machine parts for our printing presses, diecutters, glueing machines and other parts we needed. I used to have them make me tapered drift pins out of hardren steel that were threaded on one end for the use of extraction tools. Buying them from Man-Roland cost us four fold of what Carlos would charge and the threads never gave up. In fact, I turned one of the best known Machine Tool Repair Business (E G Machine Repair out of Alanta) on the east coast onto him and Erwin orders a ton of stuff from C&S. Stay tuned, I will post something tomorrow if I find out anything interestering.
"H"

[real manley]

i'm not the expert that most of you guys are, but i would bet my eye teeth that reel is a vom hofe. not trying to offend anyone, just my humble opinion.

[Jim Schottenham]

I'm in agreement with the last post, that the reel is legit. I happen to own a similar reel, also marked "Edward vom Hofe, maker". Several reels like this are found with "Sold by Edward Vom Hofe", but this, and quite a few others I've seen are marked as the reel in question. I think it's time to look at the ORCA library and see if there are any reels listed during the transition period that look like this.

Jim

[reelsmith.]

I agree with Jim, lets not be so quick to condem this one just because it's different from the norm. I think it is legit too.

Dean.

[Steve]

The EVH catalog for 1920 included some Montague reels. By the 1930s, it included Ocean City reels. It doesn't require a stretch to infer that the "Maker" mark was used on some reels, for some arcane reason, instead of the "Sold by" mark.

The "Maker" mark seems to be fairly widespread, if the Oliver auction reels and Jim's pic are any example, and it certainly is genuine. However, Mr. Manley should give a wide berth to dentists' offices; the mark, though genuine, does not mean that the reels were necessarily EVH-made.

[Harvey]

Well, I took a couple reels up to the machinist that I was talking about in the above post and here is the results:
The two reels I took was a Style “B”,
pre 1910 and a #1755 Standard Professional
Free Spool, “HJ”. Carlos was amazed at the
quality of workmanship in both reels. First I
ask him if he could reproduce either reel and
make them so they would be hard to tell from
the original. He laughed and said NO. He admitted
that if he had the time, he could make them so they
would be really close but an expert could tell the
different in them for sure.
Then I ask him about the screws and I had copy and
pasted Joe‘s comments about talking to his cousins. He
read that and took a screw out of the Style “B“. He
measured it and got on his computer. Here is what
he came up with. He can buy the Nickel Silver bar stock
in 3/23” for $.19 a foot. He can get 36/40 screws from
each foot of stock. With a little figuring he came up with
this. (he does have a small screw machine but it won’t
do screws as small as this so they would have to be lathed.)
The initial cost for the first screw would be in the
neighborhood of $250.00/$280.00 for the CAD Program
and the work. From then it would be a snap. He says he
can make 120/160 an hour depending on how good the
stock is. For the first 1500 screws after the setup charge
would run me probably $700.00 That figured out to be $.46
cents a screw. Now if I want 15,000 we could cut the price
in half. He suggested that if this was to be done in mass
qualities, go to a screw machine company as Milt suggested
and you could might get a hundred made for under $30.00
including set up if I promised an order of a lot more and that
price would drastically be reduced. The big problem that he
sees is the thread. The thread that Shakespeare used is not
a standard one either in SAE or Metric. Dies would have to be
made to conform to the thread but that is common in the
screw business. He did take the Standard reel apart and
photographed all of it. Again, he was amazed at it and the
fact that it is over 70 years old. He got out a set of gauges
and measured the bearing journals to the spool shaft. They
were with in the allotted tolerance that Shakespeare bragged
about. They were within .0027 of each other for the tail plate
and .0044 in the headplate. He laughed and said that he
guessed the head plate bearings were worn. He ended up
putting all the pieces on a felt covered board and taking
them around to half of his workers and his Engineering Dept.
to look at. I got a kick out of watching these guys when he told
them (in Spanish) about the reel and the quality. I spent an
hour while these guys picked up each piece and thoroughly
inspected it and conferred with other. It was great to see
them marvel at the workmanship of over seventy years ago.
Carlos thanked me for letting him and his guys look at
something that special and he thanked me for letting him
give his workers a lesson in quality, so to speak.
So, I guess that if someone wants to spend the time to
make a screw that will raise the value of a reel by, say,
10% (like a Talbot, Meek, Milan etc) It would be OK. But
to go into business selling screws would be another thing.
Like, what are you going to do with 1500 screws when you
may need a couple.
harvey

[Phantom Fisher]

What is a Schoenfeld-Gutter toothpaste-cap doing on that EVH/Montague?

What's the connection between Schoenfeld-Gutter and Moonlight?

Why do Schoenfeld-Gutter reels so closely resemble Cozzones?

Who actually made these reels?

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh!

[Guest]

Harve:

thanks a bunch. Very helpful information (for me). This is what I was looking for when I initiated this thread.

[Brian F.]

Well, Harvey, that just confirms why we like to collect old reels! I'm glad there's at least another group of people now that appreciates old reels and doesn't just see them as a hunk 'o metal. Shows you that, no matter who made them, they don't make like they used to whether you're talking reels or machinists. However, I think if someone were thinking of making a few thousand old reel screws, well...they'd have a screw loose somewhere (ok, sorry...sorry!).

[Reel Geezer]

Laurie: I wrote a piece about Schoenfield-Gutter several years ago that was in The Reel News. Cozzone made some of those reels. I can't prove any of the SW reels, or that little hard rubber fly reel, but some of the S-G wooden Sea Gull reels have Cozzone stamped on the foot. S-G also says in their catalogs that they have a reel factory in Newark.

[Guest]

I wonder how many reels that were stamped Vom Hofe were actually made by Von Hofe? I mean by his own two hands, using Steve's criteria. I would imagine 99.9% or more of my Vom Hofe's are not the real deal, I been had, but I think I'll keep them anyhow. Real Manley defers to the Real Expert I'm off to the dentist!

[Steve]

I'd imagine 99.9% or more of Real Manley's reels that were stamped Vom Hofe were actually made by the Vom Hofe company. How many the EVH actually made is anyone's guess. Production must have continued even while Ed was away fighting Florida tarpon, and it continued after his death in 1920.

One conceivable reason for the "maker" markings on the various Montague/Ocean City/Schoenfeld-Gutter reels is that the EVH company might have contracted with the manufacturer for a number of customized versions of the manufacturer's standard reels. Maybe a clutch lever was switched from an 8:00 o'clock to 10:00 o'clock location; maybe a nice S-handle was substituted for a straight crank; maybe a different grasp was installed. Whatever. As long as it had a hand in the design or demanded certain specifications, the EVH company might have felt justified in having the reels stamped with its maker mark.

If any of my EVH reels came in a box like this, I'd wonder about its pedigree:


(Catalog for Oliver Auction, July, 1987)

[Ron Mc]

It's very common on UK fly reels to see the merchant marked as "Maker" on contract reels. I have a J.W. Young stamped as "M. C. Thornburn Maker" and a Dingley stamped "Alex Martin Maker".

Steve, your catalog page is a near-perfect match for the subject reel.

[Guest]

Hey Ron, I suppose that Jim's actual reel isn't? Stop lickin Steve's boots. He missed this one. Way to go Manley, Jim and Dean. You guys nailed it.

[Brian F.]

Guest, I don't understand. It seems to me that Steve, in his ealier post, was the first to say that Joe's ebay reel is actually a vom Hofe. Several were debating whether it may have been possible/feasible to machine parts to produce the reel in the auction from an early Ocean City reel. Before everyone went off on the discussion, Steve just pointed out that he'd seen another example before. By the way, the reel in the photo from Oliver's Auction (posted by Steve) seems to match the one in the eBay auction mentioned by Joe much closer than the reel in Jim's photo.

[Guest]

Brian, did you happen to read Steve's response to Reel Manley? It seems to me that Manley states the reel is a Vom Hofe and Steve's states that it isn't. That seems pretty clear to me. Spare me the hair splitting details. It is or it isn't.

[JeffK]

Originally EVH made all their own rods and reels but I'm very familiar with the fact that their later fly rods were (usually?) produced by Montague. I've seen numerous examples. At that time Montague and Ocean City were under the same ownership. I lack the expertise to comment on the reel in question but if it turned out to have an Ocean City connection I wouldn't be surprised.