Humphreys Denver

[DDRauch]

anyone out there know anything about this spinning reel ????? It looked interesting at a flea market and I risk $3.00. It is a model A4 with pat. pend.

[jimbofish]

There was an A3 model in the July Auction. http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/ ... 3534c5.jpg

That's all I know.

[OCauto]

Patent # US 2957641 A
Produced from 1946 to 1955 and made by Humphreys for the Haywood Mfg. Company in Denver, Colorado. The other fairly common model is the 4A which is larger than the 3A.
J. B. Humphreys was the maker and his design was reputedly the first closed face spinning reel. These were mostly used for Steelhead fishing. They are also considered to be fly, spinning, and casting reels.

[Steve]

reputedly the first closed face spinning reel

Can we please stop adding this phrase to every discussion of the Humphreys reel? It wasn't.

[wrong99]

reputedly the first closed face spinning reel

Can we please stop adding this phrase to every discussion of the Humphreys reel? It wasn't.

What was?
Mark

[jimbofish]

Is the patent # quoted above correct? I'm seeing an anti-backlash device for a conventional reel.

#2584020 seems to be closer, but I could be wrong.

[john elder]

That was a reel that I donated and Wayne just sold it on ebay for $36 for the Club, so you are all right at 3 bucks, even if no box. I have sold this combo in better shape in box for $75....neat reels!

[DDRauch]

Thanks for the info on my new shelf item it fits in perfect with the other reels that my friend have never seen or heard of

[Steve]

...reputedly the first closed face spinning reel...
...the Humphreys reel? It wasn't.
What was?

"...as the line uncoils a centrifugal force is generated in the line which throws it outwardly away from both the pick-up plate and the spool wall. The side wall of the housing limits the outward movement of the line under this centrifugal force thereby preventing the line from spinning further out from the spool and thus limits the centrifugal force to be overcome as the line is brought back to the axis of the reel to pass outwardly through the line guide."
Ira Humphreys, Apr. 29, 1946

"The line, passing over the side of the reel and through this [guide or line eye], can run freely from the reel without revolving the [spool] when the cast is made. The line-eye is combined with or forms part of a cover or case which incloses the part of the reel that contains the line, and prevents, when the cast is made, the line being thrown out by centrifugal force."
...It will be seen that during this operation [casting] the portion of the reel containing the line is completely enveloped and inclosed..."
Feb. 27, 1875

And while we're at it: https://www.google.com/patents/US2034917

See also The Reel News, Nov., 2005, pg. 16, and The Reel News, Mar., 2008, pg. 8.

[Ron Mc]

1951 Wards cat

[OCauto]

Is the patent # quoted above correct? I'm seeing an anti-backlash device for a conventional reel.

#2584020 seems to be closer, but I could be wrong.

You are correct, I entered the wrong Patent #. My apologies but like Mark, I will ask what closed face reel had/has an earlier patent date?
And the word Reputedly is defined as:
adverb: according to what people say or believe; supposedly.
synonyms: supposedly, by all accounts, so I'm told, so people say, allegedly

[Steve]

what closed face reel had/has an earlier patent date?

Answered this in my previous post. Winans & Whistler patented their reel in 1875, "improved" it a year later. The cited articles have this info. And the Miller patent (linked) was also a CFSR.

And the word Reputedly is defined as:

Thanks. I know what it means. The point of my first post is that the "reputation" is incorrect, but as long as web searchers keep finding the same remark on all the sites that simply quote ORCA's writeup, people will believe it's true. This tendency is pervasive, e.g., the assumption that any NY reel with swiveling oil caps or alignment marks is a Vom Hofe. Zebco probably also has a reputation among some folks for making the first CFSR. Should we point that out in every Zebco discussion?

[OCauto]

In my humble opinion, the Winans and Whistler is not at all a closed face reel. The line is totally exposed on the spool and is only delivered via a conical device. It is not at all the same as the Humphreys, Zebcos, Tru-lines, Shakespeares, and Ocean City Fliplines just to name a few that totally enclose the spool and line.

Al

[Steve]

In my humble opinion, the Winans and Whistler is not at all a closed face reel.

IMHO, it is. The 1875 quote above is straight out of the patent, and it says essentially the same thing that the Humphreys patent quote says, i.e., that the cover of the reel prevents the line from billowing centrifugally during the cast. IMHO, whether or not the cover is there during retrieval is irrelevant. Sure, it's handy for holding a line guide during retrieval, but there are other means of holding guides.

So let's define "closed-face spinning reel." If you wander online through many definitions, "CFSR" is considered interchangeable with "spincast reel" in most instances (keeping in mind that most online definitions of anything are just taken from other websites). Descriptions often include thumb buttons, too, and I hope you'll agree that CFSRs don't have to have thumb buttons. But IMHO the major purpose of a cover on a spinning reel is exactly what W&W and Ira Humphreys suggested: it prevents line billowing. This advantage became increasingly important as the use of mono increased. As far as I'm concerned, if the spool is "closed-face" during the cast, it's a closed-face reel. It doesn't have to include all the niceties introduced after WWII, like push-button snubbing, pickup pins, et al.

Now, to assuage my guilt for untracking this thread: IMHO, $3 is almost never too much of a risk for an old reel.

[DDRauch]

Sorry I stirred up the nest on who was first but how does it work. Just don't make much sense to me. If I hold the crank handle in it cast fine then I hold the crank plate out it reels in. But if I'm not paying real close attention the crank moves in and the line stops coming in. Am I missing something??????

[fishawks]

Has anyone here ever seen an actual Winan's and Whistler to prove they actually existed and were manufactured for sale? Or are we chasing a Bigfoot? I like hard evidence. Dan

[Steve]

Has anyone here ever seen an actual Winan's and Whistler to prove they actually existed and were manufactured for sale?

Dan, we all like hard evidence, but canvassing the limited number of folks who read Reel Talk or even who collect reels probably won't provide it. Look at all the so-called "one-of-a-kind" reels that collectors have run across. If they hadn't somehow fallen into a communicative collector's hands, we, as collectors, probably wouldn't know they actually existed.

Over the years, many collectors have stumbled across an example of a reel, patented or not, that they might not have believed was actually manufactured. I have, and all appeared to have been used. Running across such things is a matter of luck, of course. Unless additional examples show up, it's impossible to determine whether or not these things are simply prototypes or were actually marketed for some brief period, but they "actually existed."

The patent literature is public info, and it's obvious that reel designers consult it. For example, I firmly believe that the inspiration for the Magic CFSR was the W&W reel. I know of a rod/reel combo that shows up every so often, sometimes boxed, that almost certainly was based on a predecessor invented by another guy who lived in the same town. I doubt that anyone here has ever seen the predecessor, but it most likely was seen in use by the later inventors. So which was "first?"

To return to the "reputedly" conversation: The "reputedly" quote as applied to the Humphreys is meaningless. The Loomis & Plumb automatic of 1880 is reputedly the first automatic fly reel. However, an automatic was in use in England during the 1830s, but has anyone here ever seen one? (I may have been the source of the L&P rumor, but I corrected the error in print.) And as mentioned above, it's just as valid to say that the Zebco is reputedly the first CSFR, as some folks probably believe so.

I don't think that being "manufactured for sale" is a valid criterion for determining "firsts." The W&W reel was illustrated in a book and a popular magazine, ca. 1880s, which strongly hints that at least one was in use. Who knows if it was marketed? And it's probable that most reels invented by the mid-1930s were tried as prototypes at least, even if they weren't marketed. But if someone feels obligated to add "reputedly the first mass-produced CSFR" to every Humphreys discussion, that would be okay, if a waste of time.

[Dick Braun,that-zebco-guy]

Hi everyone, thought I'd just jump in with one I believe important observation, Zebco may or may not be the first CFSR but they sure got the ball rolling. In 2019 their CFSR will turn 70 yrs old. It also I believe changed fishing for the entire family for ever. Just a thought.

[clinton_beeler]

To me a spincast has a closed face and a fixed spool. A CFSR (i.e. Zebco Omega 154 & 164) has a spool that oscillates. It doesn't turn, but it does move.

Best Regards,
Clinton

[OCauto]

A old topic I hadn't visited in some time.
Hmmm Steve is now reputedly the final word on closed face spinning reels.
Congratulations.

Al

[Dick Braun,that-zebco-guy]

A parting shot if I may. Steve knows his history and I bow to his knowledge. Zebco as stated above in 2019 will turn 70 yrs old and I will nominate them as the longest lasting CFSR ever and the fact that R.D. Hull changed fishing for the family forever. They may not have been the 1st CFSR but they got a whole lot of other company's on the band wagon with a whole lot of different looking and working CFSR reels, some good and some bad, bottom line is the CFSR has taught untold number's of young fisher person's the joy of the sport and that is the most important aspect of the whole thing.

[Steve]

...I bow to his knowledge

That's flattering, Dick, and I thank you, but I'd rather no one bows to my knowledge (or to anyone else's). Instead, save your agreement until you're convinced by an argument that is based on information from the best sources available, which would include original sources whenever possible--and citations. Of course, this often means going beyond the gibberish found everywhere online, which often is repeated ad nauseum.

For example, what's wrong with these online gems?
"The year after WW2, Winans and Whistler had invented 'spinning' reel and it became the most common fishing reel until now."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld ... -IL1MdWadg

"The inventor who solved the problem of level winding was William
Shakespeare, Jr., who created a complicated leveling mechanism on a
jeweler’s lathe and obtained his patent in 1896."
"The only challenge to the backlash-prone bait-casting reel came
from a man in Perth, Scotland, one Peter Malloch, who in 1884
created the first spinning reel."
http://www.outdoornews.com/2001/02/23/a ... ing-reels/

To return to the CFSR chat: no one is disputing Zebco's contribution(s) to fishing. In a similar vein, Shakespeare deserves the credit for convincing folks that their lives would improve if their casting reels were equipped with level winds. But he doesn't deserve the credit for inventing the first level wind.

If folks would actually read the stuff linked to in the posts above, I think the arguments for the origins of the CFSR would be pretty convincing.

By the way, to answer Dan's question of Aug. 21, 2014: A W&W reel received a bronze medal when it was included in the U.S. Fish Commission's exhibit at the Great International Fisheries Exhibition at London in 1883.

(Winans & Whistler patent.) Hard rubber and brass, silver-plated. Complete with 250 yards of line. Secured by plate and rivet. Balance-handle. Value, 1882, $40. 42,827. U. S. Fish Commission. Adjustable spring guide or line-eye checks overrunning of the line by preventing rotation of reel when casting. Slotted, hinged cover, guides and controls flow of line; and thumb brake controls rotation of reel when playing fish. (C, B. &M.)

Many of the items in the exhibit were provided by Conroy, Bissett & Malleson. The exhibit had been created initially for the Philadelphia Centennial Exhibition in 1876, where the W&W reel was also displayed.

[clinton_beeler]

It turns out that the only patent on the Zebco "Standard" was "Adjustable Gears". That's the button on top. He didn't patent the fixed spool nor the enclosed front cover. He would later get patents on the spinnerhead and eventually on the "clicker" (bait alert). I should probably look at when the gear release patent was granted. It is possible that this happened after the reel was out of production (irony).

Best Regards,
Clinton

[Steve]

It turns out...

There's a little more detail in Reel News, November, 2005, in an article on which Clinton advised.

[clinton_beeler]

Sometimes I'm both right and wrong. On July 26,1949 R.D. applied for a patent titled "fishing reel". The patent (2,675,193) was for the Standard (the entire reel). It was granted on April 13,1954. By that time the reel had stopped production.

Best Regards,
Clinton