Another interesting reel from Dave Gaustad

[john elder]

Dave sent me these pics of a sears Ted Williams saltwater reel, wondering if I had seen one like it before....had to answer in the negative! It has a 4" diameter, so pretty similar to a Penn 4/0 in size. I suppose there aren't many around because they would have had an uphill battle competing with Penn, I'd guess.

I believe the lever is thrown forward to tighten the drag and the range is probably set by the knurled knob. Hey, Dave!...do you pull that other knob out for free spool or is that a clicker??

Anyone know anything about this one??

[mannishevitz]

john;

I have several of these reels. They are identical to the Gar Wood reels made by Fin Nor except for the badging. It also bears a similarity to the Wondertroll reel from Shakespeare...they all seem to come from the mid sixties. The share the same configuration and the all telling reel seat is almost identical. I will post some pics for you and let you decide but all I have seen leads me to believe that they are both Fin Nor products they made for the trade, in this case being Sears and Shakespeare. I have one of the Sears reels never used in the box so I will post pics of the box and paperwork as soon as I take them. Hope this helps

Thanks

Chris

[john elder]

Wow, that really dresses up this Sears product! Thanks, Chris! I look forward to seeing your NIB version!

[wrong99]

What is stamped on the metal part of the tail plate?
Mark

[reeltackle]

`
The Sears Ted Williams reels were designed and produced by Gar Wood Jr., son of Gar Wood the famous inventor, hydraulics king and speed boat racer. The reels were originally marketed in Gar Wood Jr.'s name and they came in two sizes both having the same diameter but one with a narrower spool. Wood Jr. later made the reels for Sears and they were sold as part of their Ted Williams line of reels. It was the highest quality reel in the Ted Williams line of reels. These reels were Gar Wood Jr. reels and had nothing to do with Southern Tackle who owned Fin-Nor at the time. Wood Sr. had businesses that produced multiple products, including speed boats, so Wood Jr. had access to the tooling and funds necessary to produce these reels himself.

The drag was also incorporated into the Shakespeare Wondertroll reel, which for my money is the loudest reel ever made. When you put the click on that reel and give it a spin it can be used at your New Year's eve party as a noise maker. Below is a photo of Gar Wood Jr. on a fishing trip, the reel in the bottom of the boat appears to be similar to a Wondertroll but more likely one of his custom reels that happens to resemble one. It appears to be some sort of cradle style reel.






Gar Wood Jr.'s drag was also incorporated into Fin-Nor's lower end reels that came along in the 1960s. You will find his drag on the Viscount reels and both the Silver Regal and the Gold Regal reels. The Viscount reels, like the Gar Wood reels, were made of a white plastic material that developed problems when they were exposed to the South Florida sun for to long a time. The plastic would dry out and most of the Viscount reels you find will have cracks or chips out of the plastic collars where the handle comes out of the body of the reel. Charlie Dunn owned Southern Tackle which owned Fin-Nor at the time these reels were produced. Dunn's son and Gar Wood Jr. were best friends and I believe this is how the Fin-Nor/Gar Wood Jr. relationship began. Wood Jr. also worked extensively with Fin-Nor designing both the "Wedding Cake" fly reels and the Spinning Reels in the late 1960s. These reels were marked with Gar Wood Jr's name. Below is a photo of an unmarked Gar Wood Jr. style reel found in Fin-Nor archives believed to be a prototype of the Regal and Viscount reels.



There was another reel made in Hialeah (a Miami suburb) at about the same time that I also suspect was a Gar Wood Jr. product as it incorporates the same lever drag. The reel was the "Troller" made by the Murbert Mfg Corp. This reel was a bit crude and I believe represented some of Wood Jr's earlier attempts to incorporated his drag into a reel.




One other reel that utilized the Gar Wood Jr. drag, the "Del-Gar" reel, was another reel that Wood Jr. was directly involved in. I believe this reel may have predated all of the other Gar Wood Jr. reels with this style lever drag. Below is a photo of a Gar Wood Jr. Reel (left) next to the Del-Gar reel (right).



Gar Wood Jr. with an 80 pound sailfish caught in Panama in 1963, The reel used to catch this fish was a Gar Wood Jr. custom built "Hydraulic Closed Face Spinning Reel". If anyone finds this fellow, please let me know!!











Ed Pritchard

[Tightlines666]

This thread is interesring. Upon seeing the first pictured redl, I was hoping someone might draw a FinNor connection.

Good stuff.

[scottorock]

I wonder who wrote that note on the sailfish....lol

[john elder]

Gee, Ed....can you add a little detail here??

Wow, what a nice piece of research! lots of work and your sharing it is much appreciated by all your "real" buds!

john

[54bullseye]

I also have 3 of the Ted Williams reels two are the same as John posted and one is a wide version with same diameter then I have a Gar Woods Jr. version same size as John posted. They also made a narrow version which I would like to find. John Taylor

[Midway Tommy D]

Holy Cow!! I think they're breading as we speak. Thanks guys, this is some pretty cool stuff.

[Steve]

Wood Jr. later made the reels for Sears and they were sold as part of their Ted Williams line of reels.

Funny you should mention that, Ed. I think that we discussed, years ago, the similarity of the fang-like line snaggers on the Fin-Nor spinning reels and the Ted Williams spinning reels with the Edward Small patent numbers.

Randy Heller and I thought they might be related, but omitted the idea from our article. Now it sounds as if the similarity is not coincidental.

[Teal]

For what it's worth about 8 years ago I interviewed the only surviving partner of Southern Tackle (there were four partners, including baseball great Ted Williams for a time). He said that it was his recollection Fin-Nor manufactured these reels on contract for Gar Wood Jr. He may have mistaken these reels for later products that Fin-Nor licensed from Wood Jr., but I specifically asked about Ted Williams reels (the purpose of my interview) and mentioned this one specifically. He was confident. He also told me the single greatest Ted Williams story I have ever heard, but I can't tell it in public It's one of the best stories I've ever heard.

Also in my Southern Tackle master catalog there is a Tycoon-Fin-Nor catalog in it, and the only other saltwater reels is the Gar Woods model. Not direct evidence but ...

About three years ago, a huge lot of Gar Wood Jr. design papers, prototypes, and photos went up for auction on LiveAuctioneers. ORCA member Mike Hackney took a serious run at them but I want to say they went for over 5 grand ... the answer is likely in that stack of papers.

Ed, please consider writing this up for The Reel News. I really think there is so much great info in here.

-- Dr. Todd

[mannishevitz]

Ed;

Thanks for filling in my missing pieces. I have every reel you spoke about except the closed face spinning reel and will be posting pics of them as soon as i get home. The reel seat on the Wondertroll and the Ted Williams are basically identical to each other. Do you know if Gar built these reels for Shakespeare?

Thanks

Chris
'

[Midway Tommy D]

Now it sounds as if the similarity is not coincidental.

Interesting how an idea can blossom. I wonder if Wood ever referenced Small's patented design, as it appears Zangi did, at least for awhile, anyway: http://www.antipes.it/mul_zangi_pioneer.html

[reeltackle]

Todd, my information came from Charlie Dunn's daughter. When doing my research on Fin-Nor I questioned her about Gar Wood Jr. and his association with Fin-Nor. She recalled that Wood Jr. was a good friend of both Charlie Dunn Sr and Charlie Dunn Jr. Gar Wood Jr. and Charlie Dunn Sr. were both very interested in fishing and fishing tackle design and Charlie Dunn Jr. and Gar Wood Jr. were both very interested in speed boat racing. She joked that the two should have been born to each other's fathers.

I asked her about Wood's association with Fin-Nor and she told me that he designed some reels for Fin-Nor to include the Gar Wood Jr. spinning reels, the "Wedding Cake" fly reels and the Viscount and Regal reels, however, she had no recollection of him having any of his own "Gar Wood Jr" reels built by Fin-Nor. The fact that she did not remember these reel being built in the Fin-Nor factory does not confirm that the reel were definitely not built at the Fin-Nor plant, only that she had no recollection of them being made there.

Gar Wood Jr. was building reel independent of Fin-Nor. The "Troller" by the Murbert Mfg. Co. was a Gar Wood design and was built in Hialeah. The "Del-Gar" reel is most assuredly a Wood Jr. reel but not a Fin-Nor product. I do not believe that Fin-Nor was making the Wondertroll for Shakespeare yet the reel bears his design throughout. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the "Hydraulic closed Face Spinning Reel" was not a Fin-Nor product either. Wood Jr. through his father, had the access to the cash and to the manufacturing machinery to produce his own reels which I am sure that he did. However, this being said, that does not confirm that Fin-Nor did not make the reels in question for him.

Another story related to me by Dunn's daughter would also suggest that Wood Jr. had the capability to make a high quality reel on his own.

Charlie Dunn Sr. was an avid salt water fly-fisherman. As the story goes, Dunn would hook up to a good size fish and his Pflueger Medalist would pop its rivets and fall apart in his hands. As a friend and fellow fisherman interested in reel design, Wood Jr. built him a salt water fly reel that he believed would withstand the pressure of fighting a big fish and gave it to him as a present. The reel was the first Fin-Nor "Wedding Cake" fly reel and it was not made in the Fin-Nor shop. Below is a picture of the reel and a photo of Dunn with the reel and a nice bonito. The photo is dated July 1962, the "Wedding Cake" fly reels did not go into production until 1967.





According to Dunn's daughter there were five partners over the years including her father, one was Ted Williams who she described as also being a family friend. Other partners included Sam Snead, Al Mathers and Walter Killilea (sp). Todd, which partner did you speak with?

I had a chance to speak briefly with Ted Williams when he attended the opening of the Bass Pro Shop in Islamorada but unfortunately did not have the presence of mind to ask him about his trolling reels. Perhaps an opportunity squandered.

I did however, spend a good amount of time with Ted's personal secretary of 34 years, Stacia Gerow. Stacia had a small office in the Islamorada Bank Building on Upper Matacumbe Key. Back in the mid 1980s, before I knew she was Williams's personal secretary, I would take important documents to her to be typed for my Florida Keys Yellow Pages business. This was in the pre-computer era and I did not have an office manager at the time as I was just starting the business. She took on odd jobs because Ted's work was not filling her days like they had in previous years. The way I found out about her "Day Job" is a story in itself. Stacia retired to take care of her husband and moved to the west coast of Florida and we stayed in touch for many years. Once I found out I did ask her many questions about Ted and his fishing and also about his reels, again, I did not ask her who made the Ted Williams trolling reels, so again, another opportunity squandered.

Todd, who was the Southern Tackle partner you spoke with years ago? According to Dunns daughter, partners came and went. Was the fellow you spoke with a partner at the time and/or actively involved during the years the reels were said to have been produced there? If so, I would put more stock in the recollections of a partner who was active at the time the reels were being made than I would Dunn's daughter's accounts and could be inclined to change my thinking on who actually manufactured the reels.

Also Todd, I am unclear on where exactly the Gar Wood Jr. reel was listed in the Southern Tackle catalog. Was it in the Southern Tackle portion of the catalog or specifically in the Tycoon/Fin-Nor section of the catalog? Can you post a picture please? Also, and more importantly, we need to swap Ted Williams stories sometime. Some of the Ted stories I heard from Stacia and Jimmy Albright (Keys guide and Ted's personal friend) are pretty damn crazy.

So, did Fin-Nor produce the Gar Wood Jr. reels and the similar style trolling reels for Sears? Anybody else have any info that might make the water a little less muddy?

Chris, I would love to know all the information that is on your Sears box. Does it have any manufacturing information?

Steve - Fangs alot for bringing that up. Gar Wood Jr design or and interesting coincidence? And what about the Holliday Spinning Reel and its fang? Snead was involved in both the Holliday reel and the Fin-Nor spinner via Southern Tackle and the similarities between those two spinners are pretty obvious. Weren't both your Ted Williams reel and the Holiday reel made by Zangi? What is the connection here?

[54bullseye]

Ed
Would Fred Grieten the guy who produced the "Reel King" reels have had anything to do with Gar Woods Jr. or his reels or possibly Ted Williams ? Or would he just have been involved in the Fin-Nor reels and then on to his own "Reel King's" ?? John Taylor

[Tightlines666]

.........

Ed, please consider writing this up for The Reel News. I really think there is so much great info in here.

-- Dr. Todd

X2

[Steve]

Weren't both your Ted Williams reel and the Holiday reel made by Zangi?

Yes, according to Ben Wright. The Holliday Reel Co. of Taunton, Mass., was probably a distributor. But the Holliday line snatcher was just a slot in the edge of the cup, lacking the fang and roller of the T.W. and Fin-Nor reels.

Tom, that Small acknowledgement was made by whatever collector (Sergio di Marco?) wrote that page for his club's website, not by Zangi. The Pioneer reels he describes have the same fang as the above.

It sounds as if all of these reels resulted from a vast, international conspiracy involving Wood, Snead, et al.

[Midway Tommy D]

Tom, that Small acknowledgement was made by whatever collector (Sergio di Marco?) wrote that page for his club's website, not by Zangi. The Pioneer reels he describes have the same fang as the above.

Yes, Steve, I realized that, but Randy and your article, at the bottom of pg 3 & top of pg 4, states that the TW "fang" reels were marked with Small's PAT#, which, in fact, they are. The Pioneer "fangs" were the same reels, though European versions with a couple of minor leg/stem differences, as the TW "fangs". The Pioneers don't sport the actual PAT#, more than likely because they weren't sold in the US. Sergio mentions the Pioneer and TW connection: https://www.antipes.it/mul_zangi_estero_ ... oneer.html , and also references you guys' article, including a link to it. Zangi made all of that specific bevy of "fang" reels and because of that, the Small PAT# on the TW strain was the Zangi acknowledgment I was referring to.

Interestingly enough, Small's 1959 PAT, which closely resembles the Holliday strain, actually describes the "fang" style, #s 46 & 52, line pickup rather than a mere slot and hardened line guide insert that they were ultimately manufactured with:

[Teal]

Ed,

I interviewed Kenneth, who's dad T. Walter Kililea was secretary and GM of both Southern and TWI. I think he was almost 90 at the time but sharp as a tack -- he's since passed a few months ago. He said he worked with his father at both and remembered a lot about TWI and Southern and was very specific about a lot of details I was able to fact check later. I did not find any major mistakes on dating, so his memory was pretty sharp. I will have to go through the notes but I remember him saying that he recalled Fin-Nor had a special relation with Gar Wood Jr. Very interesting guy and close to Ted up until the end, as they lived not far from each other. Had a lot of tremendous Ted stories ... he was also at Pearl Harbor. Amazing guy.

As for the reel, I sold the Southern Tackle master catalog on eBay several years ago -- all of the material, including the complete Tycoon catalog, were part of the Southern tackle catalog. The Tycoon catalog was the only "insert" part, but it was bound into the catalog and listed in the table of contents so it was definitely supposed to be there. I assumed all Southern Tackle catalogs of the era had this special relation to Fin-Nor, but I haven't seen any others so I don't know for sure.

As for whether Fin-Nor made these reels or not, I can only report what I got from the interview. I have assumed since that Fin-Nor had a hand in making them, but again, I believe those questions would have been answered here:

http://www.auctionzip.com/auction-lot/G ... 4515A9ADC/

The images are gone, alas. I think I saved the images but can't find them.

-- Dr. Todd

[Teal]

Duh ... here are the other listings:

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/11 ... prototypes

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/11 ... prototypes





Whole lot of fishing history in these files.

-- Dr. Todd

[reeltackle]

John Taylor - No, I do not believe that Fred Grieten had anything to do with any of the Gar Wood reels or any of the Fin-Nor reels after he sold the company. As far as I know the only other commercial project that he worked on was the Reel King Reel.
UPDATE - Here is a photo of two, circa 1938, Fin-Nor reels. The small reel is a custom order and is by far the earliest small Fin-Nor reel I have ever seen. The name engraved on the back of the reel is Gar Wood Jr. Gar Wood Jr. was born in 1918 so he would have been about 20 when this reel was built. I imagine that the relationship between Grieten and Wood Jr. at this point was nothing more than maker/customer. The name is hard to read in the last photo








Steve Vernon - Yes, I stand corrected, there was no fang on the Holliday spinner. The major similarity was the drag knob. It was identical to the Fin-Nor spinning reel knob and most were interchangeable. Also, their gold anodized rotor cups were so much alike.

Todd Larson - I'm still not quite understanding where the Gar Wood Jr. trolling reel was located in the Southern Tackle catalog. Was the reel in the Southern Tackle portion of the catalog or was it listed in the Tycoon/Fin-Nor "insert" itself? If it was in the Tycoon/Fin-Nor insert perhaps they made it in house. If it was in the more generic Southern Tackle portion of the catalog perhaps they were just selling it for Wood Jr. I would agree that Gar Wood Jr. and Southern Tackle had a special relationship. According to Dunn Sr.'s daughter, Gar Wood Jr. had a very close personal relationship with both Charlie Dunn Sr and Jr. Wood Jr. also had a business relationship with Fin-Nor designing the Spinners, "Wedding Cakes", Regals and Viscount reels for them. All this being said, I am still not convinced that Fin-Nor actually produced the reels for Gar Wood Jr. that bore his name. I took a run at the Gar Wood Jr. stuff in the auction too for the paper, the rods just didn't get me excited enough to win the lots. The close up photos provided do show locations I am not familiar with. Perhaps someone reading this might be able to shed some light below.

This board is a great tool and perhaps its best attribute if used as such. Let's see if collectively we can help connect some dots and perhaps figure out more about the reels mentioned above. I will start by naming the reels involved to this point and all anyone has to do to contribute is to copy the all the reels and paste them in their reply and make additions or corrections in their reply. If anyone has more accurate dates that would be a good start, just copy and paste the whole thing in your reply and make your additions. As the replies ad up the information might just fill in and give us all more insight.

So ..... here is a start -


Pioneer Reel -
Made by Zangi
1960s
Has "fang"

Ted Williams Spinning reel -
Made By Zangi
Date ?
Has "fang"

Holliday Reel -
Made by Zangi
1960s
Has same drag adjuster as Fin-Nor
Has same partner as Fin-Nor, Sam Snead

Fin-Nor Spinning Reel -
1960s/1970s
Designed by Gar Wood
Made by Fin-Nor
Has "fang"
Same partner as Holliday Reel, Sam Snead
Has same drag adjuster as Holiday Reel

Gar Wood Trolling Reel -
1960s
Designed by Gar Wood Jr.
Built by Gar Wood Jr. or Fin-Nor
Same basic reel as Sears Ted Williams Reel
Patent applied for November 20, 1957
Patent granted January 16, 1962
Granted to Gar Wood Jr., Miami Florida
Principally for the drag

Sears Ted Williams Reel -
1960s
Designed by Gar Wood Jr.
Built by Gar Wood Jr or Fin-Nor
Same basic reel as Gar Wood Jr. reel
Same partner as Southern Tackle (Fin-Nor) Ted Williams
Patent applied for November 20, 1957
Patent granted January 16, 1962
Granted to Gar Wood Jr., Miami Florida
Principally for the drag

Shakespeare Wondertroll Reel -
1960s
Gar Wood Jr design - drag and foot

Fin-Nor Silver Regal Reel - Designed by Gar Wood Jr.
Feb. 1, 1961 - 1970s
Built by Fin-Nor
Designed by Gar Wood Jr.
Partners - Same as Holliday, Sam Snead - Same as Sears, Ted Williams

Fin-Nor Golden Regal Reel -
1960s - 1980s
Built by Fin-Nor
Designed by Gar Wood Jr.
Partners - Same as Holliday, Sam Snead - Same as Sears Ted Williams

Fin-Nor Viscount Reel -
1960s
Built By Fin-Nor
Designed by Gar Wood Jr.
Made of same plastic as Viscount
Partners - Same as Holliday, Sam Snead - Same as Sears, Ted Williams

Fin-Nor "Wedding Cake" Fly Reel -
1967 - 1976
Designed by Gar Wood Jr.
Built by Fin-Nor
Partners - Same as Holliday, Sam Snead - Same as Sears, Ted Williams

Merburt Trolling Reel -
Date ?1960s?
Made by the Murbert Mfg. Corp. Hialeah Florida - Miami suburb
Gar Wood Jr. design drag and foot

[Teal]

That's a great start, Ed! A Time line is a terrific idea, and may explain a lot. Let's make the dates above as specific as we can.

OK here's a small contribution. The one-sheet flyer below was inserted (loose) into a 1960 Fin-Nor/Tycoon tackle catalog catalog. Note it says the large version would not be available until Feb. 1, 1961. So we have some hard dates here.



The timing of the Regal's launch is 1960/early 1961. Dating the launch of the TWI and Gar Wood Jr. versions will be critical, because if it coincides or overlaps with the Regal I believe the evidence points to Fin-Nor. If it post-dates them and into the Gar Wood Jr. era, that's a different story all together.

In fact, chronicling and dating Gar Wood Jr.'s actual production reel making is the most important thing of all. One of the many Florida collectors HAS to have a catalog???? FATC query seems to be in order here ... I bet Ed Corwin had a catalog or two.

-- Dr. Todd

EDIT: Forgot to answer your question. The Gar Wood Jr. reel was in with Southern's other saltwater reels, mainly Penns and Ocean Citys. Of interest to me was that it was the only reel to compete with the Tycoon reels in the Tycoon/Fin-Nor catalog that was bound into the master dealer catalog.

[mannishevitz]

Ed,

Here is the pics of the Ted Williams 20lb in the box and its paperwork.



Here are some pics of the other reels you mentioned, some side by side and ---- up showing their similarities.

[reeltackle]

When I take the patent number off the Ted Williams box I get this:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=pate ... 017135.pdf

Patent applied for November 20, 1957
Patent granted January 16, 1962
Granted to Gar Wood Jr., Miami Florida
Principally for the drag

Location - Miami



I will add this to the reel info above.

Nice Murbert Troller and Del-Gard reel! No doubt that the Murbert is a Gar Wood Jr. reel made in a suburb of Miami and not by Fin-Nor.