British or American? bump-out top hat on rear plate

[Mike N]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/152806438049?rmvSB=true

[john elder]

I've seen early U.K. Reels with that bump...typically houses an "external" clicker.this from an Allcock catalogue from 1907

[reeltackle]

Although I have seen American reels with similar raised clicker housings I would still suspect the reel in question to be of English manufacture.

[Steve]

I would still suspect the reel in question to be of English manufacture.

Why?

[Paul M]

I'll guess American. I have only ever seen "raised check housings" on the backplates of old British reels but those all use 3 tiny screws to hold on the housing plate (as illustrated in the Allcock catalog cut shown in John's post) whereas the subject reel uses 2 full sized screws. British reels of this sort almost always have a bone handle or anything other than wood. The only reels of this sort I have seen with model/size numbers on the foot would be American. All of my older British reels have pinned feet whereas the subject reel has a single piece foot. The way the wooden knob is turned reminds me of A&I reels from the turn of the century.

[Mike N]

Some interesting points thus far. John’s drawings are compelling but I have to agree with Paul that the wooden grasp screams mid-19th century American to me.

Here is a photo of a reel from Ron G’s lures and reels website, which fits the look but for the bone grasp.





The more I look at the eBay photos of the overbuilt thickness of the metal 1/2 handle, the top hat rear plate (always a favorite feature for me) and the other fine workmanship, the more I really like and appreciate this early example. It is museum quality but for the lack of a maker’s mark.

[Steve]

What Paul said.

[Mike N]

Dr. Vernon, with the stamped Conroy, puts the board in check.

But with the mystery reel showing only 2 rear plate screws and five pins for the posts (the Conroy shows 7 rear screws), a full frontal of the Conroy faceplate, handle and grasp would be required to declare checkmate.

Nicely done, Steve.

Mike N

[Ron Mc]

the reel looks totally Birmingham to me.
Might e-mail Andrew Race, who has posted on this forum as Eton Sun, current owner of Heaton.
https://reubenheaton.com/contact/
https://reubenheaton.com/history-of-reuben-heaton/

[john elder]

Paul and Steve's points/pics certainly put the Yanks into play. But the major difference as to how the pillars are mounted...i.e., having them threaded into the back plate rather than screwed, still favors resemblance to the Allcock reel. Certainly not a method exclusive to the Brits, though. Think about all the major makers used screw-in pillars at one point or another.

Are there thoughts about the how's and whys of using that construction design? I suppose it eliminates a handful of screws needed to put the reel together. However, it also requires a total breakdown for maintenance. With early brass reels, I have often found them stripped out, leaving the repair difficult.

So, is the use of screws something that appeared in a time line or was there a first maker to do it?

[Steve]

As requested by Mike, full frontal nudity:

Yep, it's an ivory grasp. I don't know if there are hard-and-fast rules that would ID these raised-check-housing click reels as British or American. Number of screws? Who knows? Wooden grasps? Who knows? Riveted vs. cast feet? Probably. We've seen a lot of these stamped with American names. Were they stamped across the Pond before export? Doubtful. Were imports stamped here after removing the caps? Doubtful. And on rare occasions, a U.S. maker mark is found inside. That's enough to convince me that a lot of the top-hat reels were made here, regardless of how British-looking they are.

[john elder]

Ha! Here's one to add to the mix from a small herd of reels i'm repairing from Bill Hoerter! This one is virtually identical to the ebay reel, stamped "H. Willsher, NY". Iassume Willsher is an importer? Plate diameter is 2" on Bill's reel.

[Mike N]

Nice photos, John.

The matter grows curiouser, and curiouser. We have had arguably 3 of this country’s top 10 experts on antique reels weigh in (Steve V., John E. and Ed P.) to mixed results. I guess it shows how much more there is to learn about our hobby, especially about imports and post-manufacturing trade.

[reelsmith.]

Two screws holding the raised check cover = American.

Three screws holding the raised check cover = English.

Dean.

[RonG]

Here's some more photos of a typical small British fly reel.

[Mike N]

Well, Dean S. and Ron G. are two other experts I would put in my top 10. I have emailed both many times over the past 25 years for their opinions on reels.

Mike N

[sdlehr]

Well, Dean S. and Ron G. are two other experts I would put in my top 10. I have emailed both many times over the past 25 years for their opinions on reels.

Mike N

Don't forget Tom Greene. He's not very active here on this forum, but his collection is amazing....

[Ron Mc]

while S. Allcock Co. probably sold the reel, and possibly even exported it, it most likely was made by Reuben Heaton and Sons in Birmingham.
Though the reels they exported were typically stamped Made in England.
Ivory handle grasps gave way to antler, and finally wood.

[Paul M]

Years ago, Andrew Race sent me some unrelated correspondence including a copy of an early Heaton Catalog. The Heaton version of this type of reel is coincidentally shown on page 4 of the PDF, top plate, bottom right reel. I think it is different than the subject reel.

[Mike N]

Well, Dean S. and Ron G. are two other experts I would put in my top 10. I have emailed both many times over the past 25 years for their opinions on reels.

Mike N

Don't forget Tom Greene. He's not very active here on this forum, but his collection is amazing....

Not forgetting anyone, but only including those who responded to my inquiry on this thread.

[Ron Mc]

quite honestly, the exact reel is shown in the Heaton catalog that Paul linked.

The Redditch needle makers, Milward and Allcocks, made needles and naturally moved into fish hooks.
That grew into tackle supply, which they bought from other providers and sold in their catalogs.
Needles remained their primary business, with fishing tackle a small sideline.

There were small artisan shops around Redditch that answered the call to fill some of their needs, such as JW Young and Smith & Wall. These shops principally made alloy casting after the turn of the century.
The other alloy artisan shops were in the north, Scotland and Alnwick, closer to where the tackle was actually used.
Wrought brass is a larger and different effort, and came from Birmingham mills.

If you spend much time in To Catch a Fisherman, Hardy Brothers and Reuben Heaton hold the lion's share of 19th century British fishing reel patents. Many other patent holders went to Heaton to fabricate their brass reels.

[Steve]

the exact reel

What are we missing here?

[oc1]

Yeah, screws. The reel did fairly well at auction though.
-steve

[Ron Mc]

Heaton conventional frames typically used screws that went all the way through the pillars, with the female threads on the opposite side, in this case, the backplate.
If you compare the backplate and faceplate of that reel, that is exactly what it has.
A drawing is a drawing, and of course childish contradiction is childish contradiction.



Even all the makers carving wooden Scarborough reels in the 1850s bought their brass hardware from Heaton.

[Steve]

Heaton conventional frames typically used screws that went all the way through the pillars, with the female threads on the opposite side, in this case, the backplate.

Heaton was entitled to use any frame-fastening method he liked. Most makers, including U.S. ones, used a pillar with a male-threaded end that screwed into either the front or rear plate. The other end of the pillar had a female thread, which was held to the opposite plate by a short, separate screw. The Heaton drawing has little resemblance to the ebay reel, and I'd be willing to guarantee that the ebay reel doesn't have screws that go "all the way through the pillars." And the half-crank is curved. And the cross-bridge of the foot is grooved. We can't tell if the Heaton foot is riveted or not...There's only so much trust you can put in a catalog drawing. A drawing is a drawing, and Heaton-worship is Heaton-worship.