some dumb questions about fly rods/lines

[john elder]

Okay, i admit it...when someone says they use a 6 weight line or their rod is rated for such and such a weight, i have no clue whether they are catching half pound crappie or 40 lb tarpon. Is there a good primer site or would someone give me a short cheat sheet lesson in how this scale goes?

[Richard Lodge]

none I can put my finger on that walk you through the rod and line weights. If you have a question about a specific type of fly fishing I might be able to help, John. Generally speaking, your lighter weight rods (3-6 wgt lines) are for fresh water fish, including trout, panfish and maybe smallmouth bass. The heavier weight the line, the better the rod "throws" a heavier (or more wind-resistant) fly. For example, if you're fishing for largemouth bass with big poppers, you need a 6 or 7-weight rod and line. Dry fly fishing on the Beaverkill calls for a 5 or 6 wgt. rod and line. Striped bass or blues? you would use an 8 wgt or heavier rod and line. Again, big flies, lots of wind resistance and big fish, you need a heavier rod and line. And yes, there is such a thing as a 1 wgt. rod and line. I can't imagine using one, nor would I have the skill or patience for such frivolity.

[john elder]

thanks, Richard: I suspected that I should have googled up a few things on my own, but thought this whole subject might raise some interesting and fresh dialogue. i did google up a nice little primer



for those as behind as I am. that dialogue fits well with your comments re weight and what you're throwing. It isn't such an issue to call on new equipment, since it is typically marked. However, the older bamboo rods i run across are not graded on this system. I got the question the other day as to whether an old Heddon bamboo rod would fish well with 5 weight line and had no clue. I guess you have to go by feel on these old ones?

[Ron Mc]

for the kind of fishing I do, cane fly rods are perfect.

I fish tight little limestone rivers - creeks to you. And big bass (by river standards) live in the chutes and pocketwater. I'm usually fishing a T130 sinking line to get down there, but often fish the right (big) floating line with poppers.

If you want a rod shorter than 7-1/2', 1-3 weights are all they make anymore. And if you do find a 7' 5-wt, graphite, it's such a rocket that it's no fun to fish, but it ties great knots.

Those old parabolic 7' 6-wts. that dry fly fishermen deride are just perfect (they're always trying to fish 4-wt. lines on them, anyway).

We can talk about the "modern" tendency to under-line cane rods, but that's a different thread...
if you want to fish graphite...

oh yeah, and it's complicated by the fact that graphite rod makers intentionally under-rate their rods to make them appear faster.

:soapbox:

[Reel Geezer]

The Reel News carried an article by Ed Corwin about the history of fishing lines and how fly lines evolved back about 8-9 years ago...

[spey_chucker]

Hey John,

The most important thing to remember when choosing is that the line is the weight and has to deliver the fly which has to be appropriate to the species. Line size and taper are dictated by fly size and conditions. The fly rod needs to accomodate that line size. I get the question every day in the shop and while there are some good general rules about matching rods to fish you really need to look at where you are fishing...the species of fish and the sizes of fly you will be casting. If you fish areas with big water and lots of wind err on the heavy side.
Here is a basic guide...

00 to 2 wt are basically toys. Huge fun in the few places you can use them though and they will land larger fish than you might think. Dry fly sizes 16 to 32, weighted nymphs larger than 18 are not so comfortable.

3 and 4 wt are mostly "spring creek" rods. Slow moving water with wary fish needing delicate presentation. I usually do not fish larger than size 12 dries with these...maybe 10 cuz the heavier rod is in the truck.. Nymphs to about 14.

5 and 6 are the true all rounders. Both will handle delicate water although many would say the 5 has the edge there. 6 is a great nymphing wt depending on the action of the rod. It is my personal preference but I sell 5wt rods 2 to 1 over 6 wt rods to some VERY knowlegable anglers.
6 is a great rod for summer steelhead and light bass fishing. Perfect for small mouth. Although it is pushing the limits a bit either rod will handle the huge and heavy size 2 or 4 pteronarcys or "salmon fly" nymphs.

7 and 8 wt are pure steelhead and bass fun. 7 is a great heavy trout streamer or nymph rod. Poppers and wind resistant flies get easier to cast and both handle wind well. 8 makes a good light salmon rod..schoolie stripers, etc. as well. Here is an example by the way of where we fish more rod than the fish needs but we need the backbone to deliver the bug. 7 and 8 are the best all rounders for light saltwater. We use them out here for surf perch. these fish rarely top 3 lbs but we have to punch a size 6 fly into an offshore breeze. 2/0 is about the largest fly I like to cast with these rods.

9 and 10 are winter steelhead rods. allot of people consider the 9 to be the best all rounder for striper and salmon especially where they are blind casting. Many feel the 10 is too heavy to cast all day. Even if they get the rods down to one ounce we still have to manage a heavy line and it can hurt. These rods ...especially the 10, will cast up to 4/0 well.

11 and 12 are mostly tarpon and bill fish rods. We used to use them for tuna species as well but there are better tools for that now. We use these rods for sight casting. Most folks just cant cast one all day without needing a chiropractor. Flies are usually 2/0 to 6/0

13 -15 wt rods are billfish/tuna rods. Casts are suprisingly short but the flies are huge streamers built on 4/0 to 6/0 hooks and are bulkier and longer than Tarpon flies of the same hook size. The main reasons for using these sticks is two fold. First is that the denser lines sink deeper faster and are easier to manage. Second is just plain brute force with fish that out weigh you!

There are lots of times when all of the guidelines above get bent. Beware of any "expert" who claims to have the one best solution. Chances are that he only read about it or has fished little. There are lots of ways to skin the cat .

For the record I design rod blanks for a couple of companies. Ron's comments above about under rating graphite are very true. There has been little real change in the actual graphite in the last decade with most real improvements being in adhesives and scrims. In the quest for faster there is some smoke being blown out there. The adhesive and scrim improvements have given us lighter rods though. I fish both cane and graphite. I even surf fish with some of the cane.

So tell me...where are you fishing?

Sean

[john elder]

Sean and All: Thanks for the great treatise on the subject...definitely one to hit the "print" button on. Unfortunately, most of my fishing is on Ebay of late. My query was mainly precipitated by the issue of how to judge weight for some of the older cane rods...not sure when they first started with the weight nomenclature on the equipment...probably earlier than I think (can someone add this?). Sounds like most would fall in the 4-5 weight range, judging from the ones I've had in my hands and what i might imagine is a good fly to be throwing with them. I guess an average rod of the type I'm thinking of would be a Heddon #10, 8 1/2 ft.

[Ron Mc]

John, I think most people with cane rods would tell you they'll cast 4 to 5 wt. lines, but my experience is that most production cane rods are 6 to 7 wt.
Old rods were made for oiled or waxed silk lines. The silk lines were designated by diameter using letters, where "smaller" letters were bigger lines. Plastic coated nylon and dacron follwed, and the diameter system fell apart (because nylon is so much lighter than silk). Finally, AFTMA finalized line weights.

Here's a chart for silk fly lines, basically equating them with modern line weights. *

My point is that there are more "C"-rated cane rods out there than anything else. E- and F-rated rods are really quite rare. And I can think of a few nice examples.

"HCH or D"

It gets even more confusing when you throw the UK into the mix - they had a number system for line diameters.

*btw, I'm not fond of this guy's sexist web pages, but his chart is handy.
__________________________

About Silk flylines:
Another good link
And Another

I have refurbished and fished many silk lines. But I usually find myself selling them, because Cortland Peach or H&H Hi-floater outfishes them.

My favorite way to refurbish silk lines is to use Reed Curry's cleaning method ("And Another" link above), but use this mastic varnish/ linseed oil coating method. Even though it takes a month to coat the line, the mastic varnish coating is good for many, many years, keeps the line floating high, and only needs an annual waxing.

[spey_chucker]

Ditto Ron, great post although I have seen quite a few lighter trout rods. Dickerson, Payne and Winston made plenty. Many of the Granger, South Bend and certainly Walton Powell's rods were under lined.

Is any one here going to be at the Metolius Bamboo Rod Fair tomorrow?
I will be there and would love to run into someone from the board. Have some great stuff to show if anyone is interested...

Sean

[Ron Mc]

yes, and South bend 323 is one of the sweetest light rods ever, but there are many more 59's.

please do show gratuitous fly rod photos.