Manufacture of Orvis 1874 reels by Manhattan Brass & Mfg. Co.

[Mike N]

Now that we have an interesting thread going about the manufacturer of the Billinghurst reel, I wonder if anyone has any information on the maker of the the Orvis 1874 patent fly reel?

As noted in the Spring 1979 edition of the AMFF’s The American Fly Fisher:



Has anyone seen any evidence (invoices, etc.) of the contractual relationship between Orvis and Manhattan Brass? Is the 1970 article by Warren Shephard that is mentioned available anywhere? Thanks for any insights.

Mike N.

[roycestearns]

I've chased this around for a few years also. After looking through the AMFF archives last year and not seeing a definitive connection to Manhattan Brass & Mfg Co., I'm working on the theory that this may be just another conjecture about Charles and his fishing tackle, that's been created and repeated often enough to become accepted history. I think it's even possible it was produced at several different brass companies. Manhattan Brass & Mfg Co., certainly seems a likely candidate. Here's a write up on them http://www.thelampworks.com/lw_companies_manhattan.htm

Warren was a trustee at the AMFF, and wrote several articles about history of reels for Field and Stream and "The American Sporting Collection". His information was pretty definitive so I wonder where he got the details from. The details have been repeated in publications since, like Paul Schullery's "The Orvis Story". I've yet to see original documentation / receipts on where much of the tackle that CF Orvis sold from his store front(s) and catalog in the 1800's, came from. With the exception of CF Orvis rods and flies, the CF Orvis tackle and sporting goods were imported from Boston, New York, and maybe Philadelphia.

Charles had a history of retail sales (general and fancy goods, drugs, alcohol, sporting goods and tackle) prior to the public release of the reel in 1876, which means he had some great connections in Boston, NY etc.

Nice to see some of your CF Orvis collection, I'll post some pictures of mine soon.

[Mike N]

Thanks, Royce. I look forward to seeing some of your Orvis collection. Please feel free to add it to this Show and Tell thread viewtopic.php?f=7&t=22050

Mike N

[Steve]

From the beginning, Orvis farmed out production of the new reel to the Manhattan Brass and Manufacturing Company of New York City. The New York company charged Orvis a tooling-up fee of $350.00 and then produced the reel, in brass, in lots of 1,000 with a unit cost to Orvis of $1.65. By September of 1875, Orvis had the German silver model in stock.

The two models, trout and bass, remained standard items for about forty years. In about 1900 the same reel was also offered in aluminum for $1.00 more than the brass (nickle-plated) models. The Orvis reel was discontinued about 1920.

The quote is from an old page on the Orvis website, which seems to be gone now. Someone can try hunting down an archived version. The main point here is that the Orvis company may have records of the Manhattan Brass relationship. I have a copy of the page stored on my computer but I don't know how to post an htm file here.

[roycestearns]

No, that quote came from an 1979 article in the AMFF "The American Fly Fisher" and that article references pricing identified in a 1970 Warren Shepard article "History and Development of the Fly Reel" published in Fly Fisherman, all long before the Orvis website pages were ever thought of.

This is the problem with a lot of the CF Orvis history that's been created, by repeating information without source documentation its taken on a life of its own.

[Steve]

Will try to ask WS himself.

[Mike N]

Will try to ask WS himself.

Steve, when you do speak with him can you kindly ask him to share any authoritative source material with us?

Thanks

Mike N.

[Steve]

email bounced. I hope I haven't missed something.

[Mike N]

I received this text from an acknowledged vintage fly reel guru which I’m sure he won’t mind me sharing without name attribution:

“Hi Mike, I can’t add much to this thread except to reiterate that Warren Shepard, Mary Kelly, and certainly Paul Schullery are all first rate researchers and I doubt that they would go into print with a a statement of fact that they couldn’t support with solid documentation.

Although memory is dim on the particulars I seem to recall that AMFF holds some original invoices from Manhattan Brass and Manufacturing. But since the 1874 patent reel was offered over such an extended period, until about WWI, it’s reasonable to ask if the original manufacturer was responsible for the entire production of the reel over its’ approximately 40 year history. That’s something I haven’t studied. I’ve focused more on design variations over time rather than the actual fabricator(s).

AMFF archives may provide some definitive answers but if I was forced to hazard a guess, I think that multiple manufacturers of the 1874 Orvis Patent Reel are likely. If you look at a more recent example of the Orvis CFO (1971-present) it was prototyped by Bogdan, first built by Hardy, then British Fly Reel Co., then in China, and now back in the US by Abel. Rebidding manufacturing contracts is nothing new for most businesses.”

[john elder]

From Mary Kelly’s chapter in Alan Liu’s second edition of The American Sporting Collectors Handbook (1982) entitled Antique Reels, Mary writes:




So, there is the blood trail re those original reels.

[Mike N]

John- you laid down some scent for us reel hounds. Next stop, Manchester, VT.

The Billinghurst thread and this one represent what is so special about ORCA- sharing information and vetting our thoughts under peer review to preserve this cool information about those mechanical devices we all love.

Mike N

[roycestearns]

Excellent !

[Teal]

Warren was married to Mary Shepard (Mary Kefover Kelly) at the time this was written. Mary did an unbelievable amount of research and when she put something in print it was almost always with verifiable research to back it up. Warren was the same, although he tended to concentrate more on guns than fishing tackle. I will check Mary's research files and see if I can find anything she had on the subject matter.

-- Dr. Todd

[Mike N]

Thanks, Dr. Todd, for clarifying that relationship and those names. I look forward to seeing anything you can locate.

Mike N

[Mike N]

Important dates over a 70-year period for Orvis and Manhattan Brass & Mfg.Co.seem to correlate:

1856- Charles F. Orvis starts the Orvis Company in Manchester, VT

1860- Manhattan Brass opens for business in New York.

1874- Orvis receives patent No. 150,883 for his perforated fly reel

1876- Manhattan Brass Co. 14-page list shows its office at 83 Reade St., NY and its “works” address at “1st Ave, 27th to 28th Streets, NY.”

1884- Manhattan Brass Co. billhead that year shows its address as “1st Ave, 27th to 28th Streets, NY.”

1909- an envelope postmarked that year shows Manhattan Brass Co.’s address now as 332 E. 28th Street, NY.

1915- C.F.Orvis dies

1920- Orvis 1874 patent model discontinued (see Steve’s and Royce’s posts above)

1923- “EMF Electrical Yearbook, business directory for NY” still shows the E. 28th Street address and items MBC makes, none of which mentions fishing reels See photo below.

1926- Manhattan Brass Co. sells its plant and goes into voluntary liquidation.





1923 “EMF Electrical Yearbook, business directory for NY”

As an added incentive for someone to post a photo of an invoice, contract, etc. showing a definitive Orvis reel-Manhattan Brass Co. connection, I will pay next year’s ORCA dues for the first person to do so. If that person is already a life or honorary life member of ORCA, I will donate the dues sum in their honor to their choice of either the AMFF or ORCA.

Thanks
Mike N.

[Mike N]

I emailed the American Museum of Fly Fishing this morning with a link to this thread then followed up with a phone call. My request for a copy of any invoices has been forwarded to their reference librarian and I’m sure we will hear something soon one way or another.

Mike N.

[roycestearns]

A receipt or invoice would be perfect. Agreed that Mary did excellent research, I've been reading her correspondence in search of a Sam Phillippe rod and it's remarkable what happened pre internet in research.
And for C F Orvis time line accuracy ...
Charles consistently stated he started the C F Orvis company in 1856. It's not clear what that means. It appears that he started making (?) and selling a few hardwood rods, importing and selling some fishing gear from the general store. He's listed as a dentist in the 1860 census. Even when he starts advertising locally in Manchester in the 1860's pre and post civil war he's selling fishing tackle from the Equinox store he runs across the street from his brothers Equinox Hotel. He lists himself as Equinox drug store agent C F Orvis, and announces the new arrival of fishing tackle available at the Equinox store. There's a really interesting travel book published in the late 1860's, and it references the Equinox hotel as a fantastic place to stay, but for available fishing tackle it lists another dealer in Manchester! The "C F Orvis" tackle doesn't appear to be a thing until the 1870's.
Charles learned to use advertisement almost as good as his older brother Franklin. He was consistent in his narrative, he was a good retailer, and very opportunistic. He didn't write much, so we have to rely on other's accounts. There is evidence that the claim for Charles mechanical genius is debatable. So, yes I'm suggesting, like the 1882 Eggleston reel seat, the 1874 patent is in Charles name, but it may be someone else's design.

[Steve]

My book includes some of Orvis's occupations and dates, including a bit more on his dentistry practice.

[Mike N]

A receipt or invoice would be perfect. Agreed that Mary did excellent research, I've been reading her correspondence in search of a Sam Phillippe rod and it's remarkable what happened pre internet in research.
And for C F Orvis time line accuracy ...
Charles consistently stated he started the C F Orvis company in 1856....Even when he starts advertising locally in Manchester in the 1860's pre and post civil war he's selling fishing tackle from the Equinox store he runs across the street from his brothers Equinox Hotel. He lists himself as Equinox drug store agent C F Orvis, and announces the new arrival of fishing tackle available at the Equinox store...

Since I guess it’s ok to hijack my own thread for a moment, your mention of the Equinox Hotel in Manchester, VT reminded me that’s it’s considered by many websites to be one of the haunted places in New England —by the ghost of Mary Todd Lincoln.

From the hotel’s website:

“ PRESIDENTIAL VISITORS
The Equinox has been visited by four U.S. presidents and one vice president: Presidents William Howard Taft, Ulysses S. Grant, Theodore Roosevelt (who gave a campaign speech on the front lawn), Benjamin Harrison, and Vice President James S. Sherman.

President Abraham Lincoln’s wife visited The Equinox with her two sons during the summer of 1864 and made reservations to visit again the following year with the President. A special suite was constructed in anticipation of the President’s visit, but he was assassinated on April 14, 1865. Their son, Robert Todd Lincoln, loved the area so much he built his summer estate, Hildene, just down the road.“

Mike N.

[Mike N]

Well, the American Museum of Fly Fishing was kind enough to check its archives for an invoice etc establishing the link between the Orvis 1874 reel and Manhattan Brass, but to no avail. I am still hopeful, though, because this was the response:

“I did chat with my colleague today. We do not have this invoice in our archives. When this document was seen, the museum was referred to by its original name when we were housed in the Orvis store, so it is possible that it was actually part of the Orvis archives. However, I am going to reach out to a few other people who might have some insight into this and if I hear anything back, I will certainly let you know.”

I will keep the board updated.

Mike N.

[RonG]

Hey Mike, Did you ever hear back from the AMFF folks?

[Mike N]

Hey Mike, Did you ever hear back from the AMFF folks?

Nope. I guess they have more important things to do.