Three pillar Seahawk.
Does anyone have any idea when Penn changed the SeaHawk from three pillars to four? I have a Brown/Nickle Penn SeaHawk with a waffle clicker and a hex nut on the handle. It is a four pillar. I also found a black/Chrome three pillar SeaHawk for twenty dollars. The three pillars SeaHawk is a #40 and the four pillar is a #42. To my eyes the 42 looks older, so something is a miss. It could be that I misjudged.
I want to get the Penn catalogs previous to 1942 from ORCA. I am making a spread sheet with information on all reels listed in the corresponding catalogs. This way I can spot the incarnation or terminations of reels, to bracket a time frame. However I am in the process of moving to Florida. I don’t want to purchase any thing through the mail until I get settled.
I would appreciate any help on the four Pillar/three pillar SeaHawk question.
Three Pillar Seahawk
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m3040c
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Hello Mr. Nemo
You just got a 3 pillar Sea Hawk, I have been watching one on EBay for a couple of weeks. The seller put it up for $24. I emailed him and asked about the style clicker button and he told me it was a waffle type. I also mentioned to him that the collar the main shaft passed through looked broken, he neglected to mention that in the ad. The seller did reply and told me he did not see the broken side plate but the reel did not sell anyway. He relisted it and it sold to a single bidder. In the second listing I believe he mentioned the broken piece. This particular seller has sold many older Penn reels in the last two weeks.Is this the reel you purchased. I was tempted but I passed on it.
At any rate, this does not answer your question. The first thing I would do is open the reel and look for the "K" in the circle. If you go to my post about the "Ugly Longbeach" from about a week ago in Reel Talk, you will see pictures of the "K" I am talking about. Exact age concerning Penn reels is difficult but since the Sea Hawk is one of the first Penn reels, you possibly have a 1933 reel, although the color of the 1933 reels should be brown. From what I have read and the wonderful discoveries made here at ORCA, the 3 pillar reels went to 4 pillars when Penn started making their own side plates and no longer ordered them from Kunan Jakobs. I tend to believe that probably happened by late 1933, 1934 or 35. I also think that the color of all Kunan Jacobs side plates was brown. The first Penn side plates were black, I think. Model numbers for the Penn reels also came later. As far as I know all early 1930's Penn's were named reels without Model numbers. A early Sea Hawk is a Sea Hawk, not a Model 40 or 42.
Your spreadsheet may get complicated and confusing because I think Penn must have done many varitions of pillars and colors that are not documented. Every time the topic comes up new discoveries seem to be made. I just purchased a very clean 1940's Penn 80 with black side plates and a white plastic spool. A white spool seemed unusual to me, that is why I bought it. Another Penn variation? I do not think there were any Penn reels sold to the public in "White" but maybe some white plastic parts went out to the after-market.
To sum this up, I believe that exact dating of particular design changes is difficult at best for the early Penn's but if we all keep questioning these changes who knows what kind of history we can come up with.
Good talking to you.
At any rate, this does not answer your question. The first thing I would do is open the reel and look for the "K" in the circle. If you go to my post about the "Ugly Longbeach" from about a week ago in Reel Talk, you will see pictures of the "K" I am talking about. Exact age concerning Penn reels is difficult but since the Sea Hawk is one of the first Penn reels, you possibly have a 1933 reel, although the color of the 1933 reels should be brown. From what I have read and the wonderful discoveries made here at ORCA, the 3 pillar reels went to 4 pillars when Penn started making their own side plates and no longer ordered them from Kunan Jakobs. I tend to believe that probably happened by late 1933, 1934 or 35. I also think that the color of all Kunan Jacobs side plates was brown. The first Penn side plates were black, I think. Model numbers for the Penn reels also came later. As far as I know all early 1930's Penn's were named reels without Model numbers. A early Sea Hawk is a Sea Hawk, not a Model 40 or 42.
Your spreadsheet may get complicated and confusing because I think Penn must have done many varitions of pillars and colors that are not documented. Every time the topic comes up new discoveries seem to be made. I just purchased a very clean 1940's Penn 80 with black side plates and a white plastic spool. A white spool seemed unusual to me, that is why I bought it. Another Penn variation? I do not think there were any Penn reels sold to the public in "White" but maybe some white plastic parts went out to the after-market.
To sum this up, I believe that exact dating of particular design changes is difficult at best for the early Penn's but if we all keep questioning these changes who knows what kind of history we can come up with.
Good talking to you.
I am pretty sure the Seahawk that you are talking about is the one that I got. Nineteen and change is not to much to pay for a old Penn reel even if it is broken or has a ground stand (as many of my reels do). I will get it in a week or so and clean it and look for the Letter (F) stamped inside. I have the feeling I am not going to find this marking. I will have to see. However the reel is definitely pre-war and fits into the scope of my collection.
I also got a bay head reel in the box and an early Penn long beach with the bell shaped handle. The long beach is what I wanted the most. The picture of the reel is not great and I will have to wait to see how early a reel it is. Right now I think late thirties. I saw the white spool reel that you were talking about. I had my eye set on other reels and I did not want to expand the scope of my collection to add colors. Although I do have a 155 with a black and brown spotted spool that I got with a pile of other reels.
My Spread sheet might get complicated, but I am trying to prevent it from getting this way. I have the name and number of the reels listed on the right and the catalog number on the top of the spread sheet. I put only the price of the reel from the catalog in the corresponding block. I started out putting a “X” in the block. However the price helps to nail down the age of boxes that have the price printed on them. I actually have five spread sheets I am working on to document Penn reel age and my inventory.
On another spread sheet I am trying to track the different modification of Penn reels to get a general idea of age. The clickers have at lease five variants (Domed, Waffle, Hex pimple, short round pimple and tall round pimple) and there may be more. I am trying to track when each modification was introduced or terminated. Right now I am tracking over a dozen aspects of Penn reels that changed through the years. Some of these include, the shape of handle nut, writing of lack of writing on the stand, dog spring type, etc… I an sure my efforts are crude at the moment but I am hopeful the results will increase in accuracy over time. The ORCA library will help and I am going to indulge and get all prewar catalogs and literature when I get settled after my move.
I also got a bay head reel in the box and an early Penn long beach with the bell shaped handle. The long beach is what I wanted the most. The picture of the reel is not great and I will have to wait to see how early a reel it is. Right now I think late thirties. I saw the white spool reel that you were talking about. I had my eye set on other reels and I did not want to expand the scope of my collection to add colors. Although I do have a 155 with a black and brown spotted spool that I got with a pile of other reels.
My Spread sheet might get complicated, but I am trying to prevent it from getting this way. I have the name and number of the reels listed on the right and the catalog number on the top of the spread sheet. I put only the price of the reel from the catalog in the corresponding block. I started out putting a “X” in the block. However the price helps to nail down the age of boxes that have the price printed on them. I actually have five spread sheets I am working on to document Penn reel age and my inventory.
On another spread sheet I am trying to track the different modification of Penn reels to get a general idea of age. The clickers have at lease five variants (Domed, Waffle, Hex pimple, short round pimple and tall round pimple) and there may be more. I am trying to track when each modification was introduced or terminated. Right now I am tracking over a dozen aspects of Penn reels that changed through the years. Some of these include, the shape of handle nut, writing of lack of writing on the stand, dog spring type, etc… I an sure my efforts are crude at the moment but I am hopeful the results will increase in accuracy over time. The ORCA library will help and I am going to indulge and get all prewar catalogs and literature when I get settled after my move.
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m3040c
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Hello Nemo,------------- cool name
I think you made a good buy on that Sea Hawk. That reel does have the potential of the Kunan Jacob side plate. Let me know. I think the "K" is there and that you are right about not worrying about the broken collar. The rest of the reel seemed good. If you look at the Long Beach in the post, "The Ugly Longbeach", you will see that I am interested in the history of the reel first and the condition second. Sometimes a reel that is historically significant will be sold at a very affordable price when the condition is rough. Don't get me wrong, I like a mint reel as much as the next guy but sometimes mint is secondary. These reels were built to be used and not collected. Salt water use will deteriorate anything.
Mike
I think you made a good buy on that Sea Hawk. That reel does have the potential of the Kunan Jacob side plate. Let me know. I think the "K" is there and that you are right about not worrying about the broken collar. The rest of the reel seemed good. If you look at the Long Beach in the post, "The Ugly Longbeach", you will see that I am interested in the history of the reel first and the condition second. Sometimes a reel that is historically significant will be sold at a very affordable price when the condition is rough. Don't get me wrong, I like a mint reel as much as the next guy but sometimes mint is secondary. These reels were built to be used and not collected. Salt water use will deteriorate anything.
Mike
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Bruce Davis
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Penn talk
Mike
I noticed you live on LI NY Same as my friend Gary Quick I think you would enjoy giving him a call as he is quite knowedgeable on Penn Reels he has written many articles on them. His number is in the ORCA list.
As far as I know the all the early reels have a model number except the F and K Not on the reel itself but in the mags. thats were the #75 came from 1933 - 1941 Seaford 300yd multi - purpose.
I noticed you live on LI NY Same as my friend Gary Quick I think you would enjoy giving him a call as he is quite knowedgeable on Penn Reels he has written many articles on them. His number is in the ORCA list.
As far as I know the all the early reels have a model number except the F and K Not on the reel itself but in the mags. thats were the #75 came from 1933 - 1941 Seaford 300yd multi - purpose.
I received my Seahawk in the mail today. Fast shipping. The reel has the three pillars, waffle pattern clicker knob and wood handle. The Handle nut is the kind that should use a capture screw but the handle is not drilled for the screw. This makes me think the nut was a replacement. I think this reel should have had the hex nut for the handle screw. The metal parts are chromed. The stand is ground but (common on my collection) and says 250 yards. The makers mark is very similar to the Ugly Long beach only it says SeaHawk instead of LongBeach. The side plates are black. There is a plastic piece broken off the sleeve that protrudes out of the head plate where the handle attaches. Very same spot as is broken on the Ugly Long beach. I have not completely disassembled the reel yet. If I am correct the K mark should be under the bridge assy. There is no mark on the tail plate.
I have two other SeaHawks. One is similar to this one in color and design only it has four pillars (two front and two back). My Oldest Seahawk is brown in color. It has a odd feature. The free spool is operated by pulling out on the handle to disengage the spool and pushing in to engage the spool (similar to the Penn 15). This reel has four pillars.
I actually got three reels in the mail today. The above mentioned seahawk, a Penn long beach with a waffle clicker and a very fancy bell shaped handle in very good condition and almost no corrosion and a BayHead in very good condition in a perfect white box with a yellow and orange label with the word Penn written in white. It is going to be fun cleaning and dating these reels.
I really need to get some early catalogs. My earliest is catalog ten. Most of my reels were discontinued by cat 10.
P.S. I want a Ugly LongBeach
I have two other SeaHawks. One is similar to this one in color and design only it has four pillars (two front and two back). My Oldest Seahawk is brown in color. It has a odd feature. The free spool is operated by pulling out on the handle to disengage the spool and pushing in to engage the spool (similar to the Penn 15). This reel has four pillars.
I actually got three reels in the mail today. The above mentioned seahawk, a Penn long beach with a waffle clicker and a very fancy bell shaped handle in very good condition and almost no corrosion and a BayHead in very good condition in a perfect white box with a yellow and orange label with the word Penn written in white. It is going to be fun cleaning and dating these reels.
I really need to get some early catalogs. My earliest is catalog ten. Most of my reels were discontinued by cat 10.
P.S. I want a Ugly LongBeach
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m3040c
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Hello Bruce, it always good to hear from you. You have helped so much in the recent past I always look foward to a comment from you. I will try to find Gary Quick's number and call him. I did not realize that the early reels had model numbers as well as names. That is an interesting piece of info. Learn something new every day.
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m3040c
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Hello Mr. Nemo,
Yup, this is the Ebay reel I watched for two weeks. I am very glad an ORCA man got it. One of the reasons I did not buy the reel was the handle nut but now that you have found out it is only the handle nut that is wrong for the reel and that the handle is right it makes the sale even better for you.
The Sea Hawk you have with the Free Spool control in the handle is an older reel. This is the Model F set up and how I thought all Sea Hawks were made. The Sea Hawk you purchased on Ebay this week has a free spool lever. That raises a question for me. The reel you purchased looks just like a early Penn Seaford rather than a Sea Hawk. I thought all Sea Hawks went into free spool mode by pulling out the handle. The reel you bought falls into the "Missing Link" zone for me. Somebody help me out here. Did the Sea Hawk have a free spool lever at all?
When you look for the "K" inside the right hand side plate it should be located left of the free spool lever above the bridge assembly. You should be able to see it without taking anything apart in the side plate. I think, maybe, at least that is the way it is on my ugly old Long Beach.
I tend to think your Sea Hawk is different and of a later vintage than the early Model F type but because of how your reel is configured that is not a bad thing. This reel brings a new twist to the Sea Hawk model. You may have to add a new line to your spread sheet for this one.
Yup, this is the Ebay reel I watched for two weeks. I am very glad an ORCA man got it. One of the reasons I did not buy the reel was the handle nut but now that you have found out it is only the handle nut that is wrong for the reel and that the handle is right it makes the sale even better for you.
The Sea Hawk you have with the Free Spool control in the handle is an older reel. This is the Model F set up and how I thought all Sea Hawks were made. The Sea Hawk you purchased on Ebay this week has a free spool lever. That raises a question for me. The reel you purchased looks just like a early Penn Seaford rather than a Sea Hawk. I thought all Sea Hawks went into free spool mode by pulling out the handle. The reel you bought falls into the "Missing Link" zone for me. Somebody help me out here. Did the Sea Hawk have a free spool lever at all?
When you look for the "K" inside the right hand side plate it should be located left of the free spool lever above the bridge assembly. You should be able to see it without taking anything apart in the side plate. I think, maybe, at least that is the way it is on my ugly old Long Beach.
I tend to think your Sea Hawk is different and of a later vintage than the early Model F type but because of how your reel is configured that is not a bad thing. This reel brings a new twist to the Sea Hawk model. You may have to add a new line to your spread sheet for this one.
I have three Seahawks. Only one has the handle pull free spool. I have the brown early version with four pillars and handle pull free spool. I have the black three pillar version with a free spool lever. I also have a four pillar version with a free spool lever that is exactly as the one that is pictured in my Penn #10 (42) catalog.
One of the things that makes me think the Brown is the oldest is that the Head Plate bearing is round and knurled like the earliest version of peen reels I have seen. It also has the Hex nut on the handle.
The three pillar SeaHawk’s handle nut is sure to be wrong because there is no screw hole for the capture screw. I need to look at early catalogs (prior to 10) and find out weather the screw slot or the hex is the correct nut. Finding that nut will be fun.
There is no "K" on any of these reels.
One of the things that makes me think the Brown is the oldest is that the Head Plate bearing is round and knurled like the earliest version of peen reels I have seen. It also has the Hex nut on the handle.
The three pillar SeaHawk’s handle nut is sure to be wrong because there is no screw hole for the capture screw. I need to look at early catalogs (prior to 10) and find out weather the screw slot or the hex is the correct nut. Finding that nut will be fun.
There is no "K" on any of these reels.
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m3040c
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I tend to think anything in the 1930's is the hex handle nut. I have a Penn Seaford with a plastic bell shaped handle and the hex handle nut. I find it very difficult to place exact dates on these reels. Everytime I think I know the sequence of things a new twist changes the rules. The era these reels were being made was the Depression and I guess manufacturers went the most economic way they could, changing parts suppliers whenever the supplier's price was better than a previous one, consequently keeping the price of their product down. That could be a reason why there are so many possibilities for the same model. My sequence for the Sea Hawk from its origin, is the Model F, then a brown 3 pillar Sea Hawk with pull handle free spool (essentially the same as a Model F), then a brown 4 pillar Sea Hawk with pull handle free spool and now you have a black 3 pillar Sea Hawk with a lever type free spool. I bet there are other varitions also. 
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m3040c
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my mistake
my Penn Seaford with the plastic bell shaped handle has a scalloped handle nut with a locking screw, probably a 1940 or 41 reel. 
What is the yardage written on the stand. This will tell if it is a 70 (250),72(150) or 75(300). Your seaford was made between 1933 and 1941 for sure if it is a 70 or 75. The 72 is not listed in the jobber price list on Penn site. The 1933 Jobber list has the seaford included (see the Penn website/history). I have the Penn 10 (1942) catalog and the seaford is not included in the catalog. I want to get the catalogs #6-9 (1936-41) from ORCA and add the information to my database. I have ten reels that fall into the 33-41 time frames. Almost all of them have the waffle clicker. Some like the Penn 14 have a coolie hat clicker. My Penn long beach 65/62 and my Bay Head reels have the waffle clicker and a scalloped nut w/screw on the handle. The handle on the long beach is very ornate plastic. The 15 has a screw holding the handle on and a plastic bell shaped handle. I know that the maker’s mark of the reels helps a bunch on dating the early reels. The marks that say “Penn (name of reel like SeaHawk) and Pat d” straight across the middle and “fishing tackle company Philadelphia Pa.” around the edge, are of the earliest Varity. I once heard some one say when this mark was no longer used, but I don’t remember what was said. Perhaps some one will chime in and let us know. I will find out eventually.
I did get one very early and rare reel this week. Perhaps the third most valuable reel for Penn collectors next to the model F and model K. I got a thirties Penn 115 senator 9/0. It has a plastic bell shaped handle. The marks that say “Penn Senator and Pat d” straight across the middle and “fishing tackle company Philadelphia Pa.” around the edge. The nuts are scalloped on the handle with a capture nut but there is not writing on the nut. This is one of the earliest of a Penn senator which was and is Penn’s premier line. The senators started in 36 and I am sure this one is earlier than 42 because it does not match the reel in the catalog #10 that I have. I will be getting a camera soon and will post pictures. This was one hot find for me.
I did get one very early and rare reel this week. Perhaps the third most valuable reel for Penn collectors next to the model F and model K. I got a thirties Penn 115 senator 9/0. It has a plastic bell shaped handle. The marks that say “Penn Senator and Pat d” straight across the middle and “fishing tackle company Philadelphia Pa.” around the edge. The nuts are scalloped on the handle with a capture nut but there is not writing on the nut. This is one of the earliest of a Penn senator which was and is Penn’s premier line. The senators started in 36 and I am sure this one is earlier than 42 because it does not match the reel in the catalog #10 that I have. I will be getting a camera soon and will post pictures. This was one hot find for me.
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Reelman
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I see from what you have posted. You are finding a lot a of variations Of early Penn reels . Some with free spool handle, lever and so on. It might be possible Penn being a small company at the time. That when they would get orders in for a with a certain type of a free spool and they did not have the right side plates in stock. That they took what was in stock and drilled and milled it to fit the order.
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m3040c
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early Penn
Hello Nemo,
You asked what the yardage was stamped on my Seaford. It is a 250 yard stamp.
I have a feeling that Merv has a valid point. I think that once Penn started molding their own side plates the rules changed and standardization became less standard. My own personal collecting goal for the early Penn's is to get all four reels mentioned on that 1933 jobbers list in the 3 pillar style with the K Jacobs sidepaltes. I have a 3 pillar Longbeach and hope to have a 3 pillar Sea Hawk soon. The three pillar Seaford and Bayside are another story. I have seen a picture of the 3 pillar Seaford but have never seen a 3 pillar Bayside. So that may mean I will never be done. Of course the Model F and K are part of my agenda.
In my collecting of Penn reels, I jump from the early reels to the colored reels of the mid 1950's. I have them all but I am trying to put all the boxes together and make sure that they all have the colored plastic spools. And of course I am looking for that elusive White 109. I know it is out there and when I find it, I may have to sell my children into slavery to buy it.
Have a nice Day
You asked what the yardage was stamped on my Seaford. It is a 250 yard stamp.
I have a feeling that Merv has a valid point. I think that once Penn started molding their own side plates the rules changed and standardization became less standard. My own personal collecting goal for the early Penn's is to get all four reels mentioned on that 1933 jobbers list in the 3 pillar style with the K Jacobs sidepaltes. I have a 3 pillar Longbeach and hope to have a 3 pillar Sea Hawk soon. The three pillar Seaford and Bayside are another story. I have seen a picture of the 3 pillar Seaford but have never seen a 3 pillar Bayside. So that may mean I will never be done. Of course the Model F and K are part of my agenda.
In my collecting of Penn reels, I jump from the early reels to the colored reels of the mid 1950's. I have them all but I am trying to put all the boxes together and make sure that they all have the colored plastic spools. And of course I am looking for that elusive White 109. I know it is out there and when I find it, I may have to sell my children into slavery to buy it.
Have a nice Day