Milward

Lillawill · Post by **Lillawill** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 8:10 pm

Hi

I am trying to find out when Milwards went out of business or if it was sold or changed the name. Finding information on this has proven difficult so any help would be appreciated. Thank you

Bill T.

Ron Mc · Post by **Ron Mc** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:29 pm

Bill, I would think they were absorbed by Shakespeare along with S. Allcock & Co., in 1965. I doubt if there was a marked Milward product after 1962 - will check to verify this. I also know a Milward collector in the UK - I will check with him.

looking around, I was just able to date this reel as mid-50s

Lillawill · Post by **Lillawill** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:42 pm

Hi Ron

Thank you for the thought. If you can get more definate information It would be great. I am also wondering if they continued to make rods or if they just disappeared along with the others. I am also not sure what role AL&W had in this as information is hard to find on this partnership as well. By for now

Bill T

Stefan Duma · Post by **Stefan Duma** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:09 am

They are very much still in business making needles and commercial sewing items.

It was the 60's when they ceased making fishing tackle.

RAM · Post by **RAM** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:04 pm

Ron-What else do you have on the Shakespeare purchase of Milward, Alcock in 1965? They bought Pflueger's operations in 1966. Domination of the tackle business seemed their goal. Anyone else have info on Shakespeare's pursuits during this era? Bad Bob

PS to Ron-Those bridge fencings and postings would have no influence whatever on our rednecks. If 100 fish a day got in the wind the gates of hell would have been crushed to get to them. Keep on fishing that great fly tackle!

Ron Mc · Post by **Ron Mc** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:31 pm

went exploring the Pedernales headwaters two weeks ago, near the boundary between public and private water - a very broad and gray boundary.
told my friend's wife it would be better for just he and I to go rather than taking a larger group - that way we're only risking two of us getting shot at...

this water didn't get hit
I saw fish in the shallows blasting for cover - tossed my fly in and they reeled to grab it.
This fish spooked from the head of the pool as I hiked up too close before my first cast.
Then I caught him - twice (a couple of nice spotted bass in between).

my buddy Ewell is into fish up there. He said he broke off a bass that is the largest he's ever had on a
flyrod, and he's landed some fine ones...

so up here at least, the threat of getting shot somewhere in that broad gray boundary maybe kinda sorta - works.

anyway, here was my side of the bridge

oh, and this isn't threadjacking - Stefan will vouch for me - that's a Milward sewing bag I'm wearing.

Ron Mc · Post by **Ron Mc** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:29 pm

Stefan is bound to be right about Milward continuing with needles and sewing products.

All the Redditch tackle makers started out as needle makers. Fish hooks were a natural progression, then reels and rods. If you search Redditch needles, it's a who's who of Redditch tackle makers. And everyone is interrelated by marriage and/or employment. Allcock, Baylis, Bartleet,...

In 1965, the company Shakespeare absorbed was Topp Tackle which comprised the former Allcocks and Youngs manufacturing operations.

In doing this, Shakespeare bought out Milward's supplier and nudged them out of the tackle business.

There seems to be an older connection between Shakespeare and Redditch tackle makers. I'm wondering if its connected to Ingliss, AL&W, or maybe directly through Shakespeare?. But this is a prewar JW Young & Sons box, on an import reel sold at R&W Kerr Ltd., Montreal

What do you think, Harvey?

Harvey · Post by **Harvey** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:03 pm

Ron, I ain't got much to say. I have never seen anythig like that box. Yes, Shakespeare took over Topps in 1965 but that style of box pre dates that by at least ten years. as fot Inglis, I have never seen anything that would connect them to the mother country. Inglis was a general manufactoring company and made many things. They took on a line of Shakespeare tackle after the war and ended up making some after Shakespeare opened their Rexford plant outside Toronto. All I know is I WISH I had that box!
"H"

Lillawill · Post by **Lillawill** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:23 pm

Hi Guys

Well things are starting to come together pretty good. However as usual the more information the more questions. It was 1963 when The Cope Allman Group took over Allcock and all ready had controll of JW Young at this time This was the Top Tackle Which was sold to Shakespeare in 1965. Which formed Norris-Shakespeare. From what you said Ron about Milward going out of rods and reels in the early 60's now makes perfect since as Allcock was one of the major suppliers of reels to a lot of companies not only Milward. The beautiful little reel for Kerr you showed also has me curious. When compared to a Thorburn or a Corkes, or any number of similar reels with different names and different customised finishings. I wonder if they were just ordered out of the Allcock Catologue and made by JW Young or Dingley or Heaton custom fit with the customer names and and finishings they wanted and shipped to various locations all over the world. I also wonder if the customer is some cases would supply their own boxes for the reels they order with their names on them and any special feature they wanted on their particular reels. Like the line guide on your little Milward made by JW Young. Also the fact that Milward went back into needles and sewing supplies also makes perfect since as their roots in needles goes back to the 18th C.

Ron that is a beautiful little fishing hole you got their. It just makes a fellow want to get out the fly rod and go. Here is a picture of a Spring salmon I caught a couple of weeks ago. The run has not really started yet as the water is so low but I am still catching these guys

The reason I look like I have to take a crap here is the fact that my wife was taking the picture and she was taking forever and it was getting heavy. It was a bit over fourty two pounds. I will be fly fishing for these guys tomorrow. By for now

Bill T.

Lillawill · Post by **Lillawill** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:37 pm

Oops

I am not sure what I did wrong with the picture so I will try again

Clicked the wrong URL

Ron Mc · Post by **Ron Mc** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:59 am

great fish, Bill - yours would eat mine.

Prewar marked Young reels were exported to Canada and New Zeland, but you don't see examples turning up in the UK. Either the Young Sons didn't believe their name would sell, or they weren't willing to risk their contract position with Allcocks by selling marked reels in the UK. I believe A.C. Williams was heavy-handed enough in all the Redditch tackle shops that it was the latter.

Harvey, the question remains. Did Shakespeare have a hand in importing and packaging JW Young reels to North America, or did Howard Young just like the box and was practicing the sincerest form of flattery?

Lillawill · Post by **Lillawill** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:38 pm

Hi Ron

I didn't realize JW Young didn't sell reels under their own name in the U.K. I had assumed that Dingly Heaton and JW Young were just subcontracting to Allcock and could also presue their own markets. However I am not sure if these company reels that were showing up in Scotland and Ireland were bought through Allcock made to order. Or made to order by Dingley or Heaton or JW Young or maybe Brampton. For the varouns tackle out lets. The fact that JW Young sold only to Allcock in the U.K is very interesting. Of course I have to now ask was the same true for the other reel makers supplying Allcock.

Bill Turnbull

Ron Mc · Post by **Ron Mc** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:42 pm

no, I'm sure Young sold to all the catalog merchants Alex Martin, Army Navy, Carters, et.al.
But I always use the example of the Dingley-made Ousel that showed up between two models made by Young as the hint of Allcock's leverage on them.

Stefan Duma · Post by **Stefan Duma** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:30 am

Right just to clear up a few points.

Milwards never returned to needle making, they never left it. It was considerably bigger than their fishing tackle department.

Young’s did not supply only to Allcock but to anyone who would buy their products. They did produce some trade catalogues in the 1920's 1930's and somewhere I have one which I think is dated about 1923.

Ron's reel and box is exceptionally rare and certainly something that never crops up here in England. The reel is featured in one of the trade catalogues. Unfortunately all of my catalogues, books and reference material is packed away ready to move to its new location as and when I move.

As for who had relationships with who, well here a few facts.

Milward were at one time agents for Heddon as were Allcock.

Allcock Laight & Westward were related to the Redditch tackle trade. Laight was a very prominent tackle maker/wholesaler in the early 1800's.

Allcock did sell and list in their trade catalogues South Bend Plueger and Heddon baits.

Ogden Smith were the UK agents for South Bends

Ogden was a famous fly tier and dresser from the early 1800's who's book is much sought after. His daughter married into the Smith family.

Reuben Heaton employed Dingley who moved to David Slater before moving to Hardy's. He moved to Walker Bampton before he set up on his own making reels for various tackle companies.

Smith & Wall worked for Heaton before setting up on their own.

Smiths daughter married Walls son who moved to Hardy's about 1900 and as everyone knows Arthur Wall was one of the greatest reel makers making the Ebona reels for Hardy's

Ron Mc · Post by **Ron Mc** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:26 am

thanks Stefan (I should have clarified the needle-making point)

I would love to have the scanned catalog page that goes with my reel - when you get there, of course.

Good luck with your move.

Allcock & Laight was formed by Samuel Allcock after his visit to North America in the early 1850s. He partnered with Charles Laight, also in Redditch.
They sent "A" Mr. Milward to manage the venture in Canada, 1854.
In 1868, Benjamin Westwood was sent to take over Mr. Milward's job, and he ended up buying out the Laight partnership.

Stefan, based on shop dates published in Appendix of Phil W's vol. II, (and previously by Charles Kewley) it looks like James Ogden's widow moved to London c. 1895. Then Ogden-Scotford opened up 5 years before Ogden Smiths. Seems like Mr. Scotford may have been an interim parter to run the business for her?

really rare box, huh?
Is it OK if I fish the reel? I really like it, and I don't want to fish this one:

Stefan Duma · Post by **Stefan Duma** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:44 am

Ogden-Scotford and Ogden had a real ding dong battle in the adverts they placed in the Fishing Gazette.

One would say beware of imitations obviously some family fall out that became smi public.

Fantastic reel Ron, J.W. Young has been a favourite of mine for many years since the day I bought a simplex reel. Very underated by many collectors and the EX range (Valdex, Pridex, Ambidex etc.) has some wonderful examples.

Stefan Duma · Post by **Stefan Duma** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:45 am

I also have a copy of a Charles Laight catalogue somewhere from the mid 1800's

Ron Mc · Post by **Ron Mc** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:23 am

maybe I live on the wrong side of the pond? jester
I would love to see some of your references.

The -ex reels are also excellent venerable fishers.
I repair and tune the fly reels. When I have enough people contact me with needed parts, I'll order a batch from Garry M. But I can only pay him by Western Union, so it has to be a big enough batch to make it worth the wire costs for me.
The latch plate reels with the steel spindle just keep going and going. The plastic latch plate is the weak link.

Ron Mc · Post by **Ron Mc** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:58 pm

needles

is that a wierd Go-With, or what?

guess I can use them for putting leaders through fly lines.

Lillawill · Post by **Lillawill** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:57 am

Dear All

Thank you for all the great infomation on this Millward subject. It has been a very educational post.

Bill T.

Teal · Post by **Teal** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:20 am

I second Lillawell's post. This has been most informative. Ron, that is a neat go-with. Just was thinking about needles as I am finishing my next book on "The Fish Hook in America" and have a chapter on how fish hooks are made. Found this great 1854 pictorial article about Milward's 1851 Crystal Palace exhibition display. Very cool stuff. All early American hook makers started out in the cradle of Needle and Hook making in Redditch.

Dr. Todd

Ron Mc · Post by **Ron Mc** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:27 am

Stefan Duma wrote:Ogden-Scotford and Ogden had a real ding dong battle in the adverts they placed in the Fishing Gazette.

One would say beware of imitations obviously some family fall out that became smi public.

thanks for this, Stef,

In in the '37 cat, OS stated their (Young-made Exchequer - photo above) was "so often copied, often with disastrous results"

I would really love to see some of those ads.

el Lawrence · Post by **el Lawrence** » Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:52 pm

Ok Ron, it is looking like you have WAY too much free time on your hands... fishing and needle research... Get to work on that TU display for my grand opening event... only a few days away! You should be able to work a few antique reels in there...