Questions about bamboo rods

Post by **john elder** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:32 pm

There are probably better forums for this one, but hey, it's family over here and so I thought I'd throw this out before I got pummeled by the fly rod boyz...Ron, you should be able to get me prepared for that

I have not fly fished for 35 years, but found 12 fly rods in the garage as i rummaged around last weekend...that's in addition to the orvis kit i showed in another post and the Heddon my parents bought me in 1961. There are a couple nice montegues; A Shakes Wonderod fly rod that i think is great, but seems to get little respect in the collecting world; an old metal rod like Bob described in Willow Creek; a Grampus from Japan, which i understand is rated somewhere around pond scum, but really seems to be a well-made (at least nicely wrapped) rod...two set-ups for spin or fly; An H-I; my "Granger" learning experience of awhile back; and several that I can't ID. Most of the latter rods need work and/or re-wrap, but seem like they ought to be good fishing rods...collector value? Have no clue.
So, what's with blond bamboo rods as opposed to the normal darker bamboo? Google search suggests that blond is beautiful. The rod below needs a re-wrap and likely re-finish, but is pretty nice...i suppose it's an early version of a pack rod, since it is a 4 section, 9' rod...rest are all three section:

Here are two darker rods, neither has a spare tip:

Now, I could get these re-worked or use them as learning tools to learn to wrap myself...or sell them as project rods for someone else...or cut them into fire starter...any thoughts about all this? Should I cut and run?

hurdpete · Post by **hurdpete** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:15 am

John:

Sounds like you've got all the fly rods you'll need right at hand! There seems to be a strong break in the pricing on collectible bamboo- if it isn't a top end rod, there isn't much value. Restored or rebuilt rods of lower end manufacturers, eg. H-I, Montague, South Bend, etc. don't seem to generate much interest, and project rods even less, if you go by that other place. That being said, many of these were well made and make up into very nice useable rods. My 2c worth is to rewind and use the stripped rods you have- it's pretty easy to do and I find it a lot of fun. You may find a sweetheart in one of them, and you don't have to worry about treating them with kid gloves!

BTW, the first rod in your photo set is the elder statesman of the bunch- looks like from the 20's at the latest- so when you rewrap it it should get the intermediate wraps (6 turns each spaced evenly about 1/2-1 inch apart between the guides). You can copy the guide spacing on one of your other rods, or I can give you some generic guide spacings used in the 40's and 50's. The other rods are later, and can go without the intermediates.

Blond was pretty typical of Tonkin cane in its natural state; the darker canes were stained or flame/heat treated. You can stain the lighter rods with wood stain or a tinted varnish if you like; I personally like the way they look with just the amber of spar varnish as a tint.

Jim Wiegner · Post by **Jim Wiegner** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:57 am

John:

Given your talent...and fondness for woodworking, why not take Pete's (excellent) advise and rework those old rods for your own enjoyment? And if some folks look down on Shakespeare glass fly rods, or any glass fly rods for that matter...well that's their problem. There are many knowledgable people who are very fond of quality fiberglass rods, and still use them on a regular basis.
And while I'm on a rant, my brother and I recently relived our youth returning to one of our favorite trout streams in northern California where we had last fished together in 1955. And we used light glass fly rods, closed face side winder spinning reels (Johnson 40 and Wright &mcGill FreLine) just as we had originally used 51 years earlier. And we caught some fine rainbows...drifting salmon eggs!

And while I also enjoy fly fishing, when all else fails I'm not the least bit reluctant to coat the fly with a gob of liverwurst if that will work! Still ranting and snorting...Jim

Post by **john elder** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:10 pm

Thanks for the comments guys and for confirming what I figured was up with those rods. It's just that when you see them going off on occasion for such stupid money and you're like me and don't know squat about them if they don't have the name on them (and the Granger episode proves that doesn't mean alot either1), you get hesitant to pull out the 600 grit and start re-working something that you later find out was really a keeper. i would dearly love to take a couple of these back to "factory" condition...just needed permission.

Pete, the 4-pc older rod you mentioned hasn't had those intermediate wraps in recent memory, as I took off residual wraps that were on there and there is no evidence I can see in the finish to indicate it ever had those wraps...maybe late in the game after the transition? I'll look again tonight and see what I can see. I also took some pics before doing the clean-up, so I'll see what I can post in a minute.

Ron Mc · Post by **Ron Mc** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:40 pm

sounds like you have ot covered, John - not sure I can help much.
As I've mentioned before, Sinclair's Bamboo Rod Restoration Handbook is the bible of evaluating and restoring rods.
Could you take it on? you certainly have the skills.

some darker rods are darkening varnish. Some are baked. Some are impregnated (watch it , smart guys)
Flamed are pretty obvious, since they coloration is non-uniform and contains distinct black streaks.

Wonderod - I'm assuming we're talking glass? If it's less than 9', they're getting quite a bit of respect these days. Both on ebay and here:
http://fiberglassflyrodders.com/forum/

write down the model number and ask gaddis all about it.

Post by **john elder** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:47 pm

Pete: Not a brilliant low light pic here, but looks like there was likely a wrap every 4-6 inches on that rod before i cleaned it. I'm sure it wasn't at 1 inch increments.

hurdpete · Post by **hurdpete** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:40 am

John:

If you've got a record of what the rod had originally, then go with that - the purpose of the intermediate wraps was to provide additional strength for the somewhat iffy glues used to bond the bamboo sections, and the spacing varied according to the manufacturer and the age of the rod- the later rods had more widely spaced wraps as the glues improved, until finally the manufacturers dispensed with them altogether. Usually stripped rods will have slightly lighter areas which show the location of the wraps, and you can use those as a guide for your spacing. The bamboo does have a tendency to slightly darken over time due to exposure to sunlight and the interaction with the varnish.

I agree with Jim about glass rods - they can be an absolute joy to use, and as Ron says, some of the top- line fiberglass ones are moving into the spotlight for collectors as bamboo rods move up in value. However, glass rods, like bamboo, bring top dollar when they're in mint condition (essentially unfished/flawless) with the original bag and case (also mint). Prices drop rapidly below that level.

For what it will cost you to restore what you've got, you could probably get 10 functional, pretty rods for what one moderately good one would cost you new.

Post by **john elder** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:30 pm

Thanks, Pete et al...re last, that's the conclusion i've come to and if I can get these rods back in the game and learn something in the process, that's what it's about for me. The Wonderod I have is ex in the original bag. I'll likely just keep it that way and maybe before they have my estate sale, it will be better appreciated. I'll report in.

Ron Mc · Post by **Ron Mc** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:56 pm

if any of you guys are interested in a sweet fiberglass fly rod, my friend
Andy bought 50 ea. Conolon NOS blanks (in the crates from Celenese).
6' and 7' 5/6 wts. These are the original blanks used for the Garcia Lee Wulff 2070 and 2071. He's building replica rods:
http://www.flyfishohio.com/Garcia_2070_Reproduction.htm
also
fiberglassflyrodders/for sale
he also has one of each up for auction to support the fiberglassflyrodders board.
right now he is only selling completed rods, but he plans to sell a few blanks later, as well.
here's a 17" bass on the 6'er (I caught this fish 3 times in 2 outings)

BTW John, what is the size of the Wonderod?

Post by **john elder** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:46 pm

Ron...sorry...we were posting at the same time yesterday and I just now saw your previous post. The wonderod is an 8 1/2 ft rod...No. A1380T-Model FAF

Ron Mc · Post by **Ron Mc** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 10:53 pm

would go nicely with a green Shakespeare auto reel.

gadabout · Post by **gadabout** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:59 am

Hi John,

The A1380T Wonderod was made in 1950, and is rated for HCH and GAF lines, equivalent to DT7 and WF8. The catalog describes it as "An all 'round 3-piece Wonderod built to handle almost any type of fly rod lure". I wish I would find stuff like that when I rummage around in the garage, LOL. By the way, I'm "gaddis" on the fiberglass board.

Jim Wiegner · Post by **Jim Wiegner** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:39 pm

John:

Excellent input from all members. As Gadabout states, your rod was produced in 1950...May of 1950 to be exact. The T in the model stands for Trout. This rod was also available in a B or bass action. Both sold new for $40.00.

I have a 1951 1280T, which is 7'9" and 2pc but otherwise very similar in appearance to your Wonderod, which is a beauty. You have a keeper there! Enjoy.

Jim

Post by **john elder** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 6:00 pm

thanks again for the info, guys. I'll try to find that matching green Shakes reel..just don't feel right putting on my old SB marroon reel

gadabout · Post by **gadabout** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:31 pm

If you want a single-action reel, probably the best match from Shakespeare would be the Au Sable, model 1864. I'm not a real big fan of Shakespeare fly reels. A Pflueger Medalist 1495 would also be very appropriate for this rod. If you like automatic reels, there are several Shakespeare models available.

Post by **john elder** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:21 am

Hey, they're getting better!...I think! ...now I have to learn how to wrap and see if I can get these back on the water!

gadabout · Post by **gadabout** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:01 pm

John,

I have a bamboo rod of unknown origin that is very similar to the one with the cigar-shaped grip in your upper photo. I bought it over 20 years ago as a "handyman special". It was in pretty bad shape with the bamboo really twisted. It was my first attempt at bamboo rod restoration and I did 75% of it when I bought the rod but eventually got a little bored with making all the intermediate wraps. I finally got around to finishing the job last year and it came out nice. It's a real wet fly action rod and feels like a big wet noodle.

There's one thing I remember very well from the restoration process. One of the ferrules needed to be reseated. I was heating it over a flame in my kitchen when all of a sudden there was a loud bang like a gunshot. The ferrule was gone from the end of the rod and I eventually found it lodged in a loaf of bread! I'm not sure what kind of glues they used during that time period (probably early 1900s) but they sure packed a whallop! Something to keep in mind if you need to do something like that.

Richard Lodge · Post by **Richard Lodge** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:12 pm

John: If you're serious about rewrapping the rods, try to get your hands on Michael Sinclair's Bamboo Rod Restoration Handbook. It's a spiral bound volume that's out of print, but Michael did a tremendous service for those of us interested in so-called "production" fly rods. The book focuses on the major production rod makers and helps you figure out who might have made a rod, if the decal is missing or if the rod didn;'t have any markings to begin with. Michael also walks you through the restoration process and explains the differences between a restoration and a refinishing job. From the looks of your rods, it would be refinishing, since any decals and original wraps, which you could use to match colors when replacing wraps, are long gone. anyway, it's a great book and well worth tracking down.

Post by **john elder** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:07 pm

wow...Rob...that must have been quite a moment! ...and shot a loaf of bread

I would have assumed that they used hide glue originally and you would normally use a heat gun to break it loose...most likely got gas buildup in between the ferrule and the rod tip. Regardless, I'm glad to be warned...haven't pulled the ferrules, but I imagine they all ought to be re-seated if I'm going to go to the pain of getting them back to "original", or close. I appreciate also the "noodle" comment, especially at 9 ft...probably a good reason to just pull the ferrules and shorten the segments to get an 8 ft rod out of it and stiffen it a bit.

Richard...yes, Ron Mc had already told me about that book and I guess i better eat the $180 they are now getting for it and round up a copy...sounds like it really does give all those little factoids that we need to know but can't find in one place.

Of course, the alternative is that I will need bean poles come spring!...nah...just can't do it!

Reel Geezer · Post by **Reel Geezer** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:19 pm

John: With the woodworking talent you have you'll be a great success at wrapping rods. When you get done with those old fly rods, you'll need to get out some of those rods you're fishing with now and try some stuff like this:

That one is an endless diamond, or you can try

How about some fish?

This is the stuff I used to do about 20-25 years ago when I was making 20-30 rods a year.

Dr. Rob · Post by **Dr. Rob** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:43 pm

Jeezus, Geezer... Jeezus. Wow. Knockout.

Anyways, bamboo... I have a Hardy's of Alnwick Wanless , split-cane Palakoona (?) rod here. Anybody know that one? $ ?

I used to use it all the time, until I saw one in a museum. (Granville Island Sportfishing Museum) Still have the canvas carrying case and little cork ferrule plug too.

Post by **john elder** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:20 pm

Sounds like I better come do a sabbatical in Idaho when the Spring Thaw arrives...we can do the float trip for smallies til dark, then delve into the secrets of wrapping! Those are really fantastic wraps, Geez...do they make duct tape in those patterns?