Interesting Innards in a Philbrook & Payne fly reel

[kyreels]

I got a couple reels from sometime-ORCAn Bob Moran to clean and reno, one of which was a nice little Unmarked Philbrook & Payne raised pillar reel. Unlike its pricier marbleized cousins, this reel had a black finish more typical of these small RP reels. Other than a few nicks, the reel was in great condition and just needed a good clean and lube:






The surprise came when i opened the reel up…. The interior surfaces were marbleized!




The first thought (hope??) was that a finish had been added to the surface to cover the marbleizing, but close examination and attempts to clean with several agents did not support that notion. One orange spot was evident on the edge of the back plate and the very edge along the nickel silver rim showed a hint of marbleized finish:




So, how and why did this occur? I had thought/expected the marbleizing to be mixed throughout the “mud” , but couldn’t see how under that circumstance, one could remove the marbleizing from only one surface.

After discussing with Jim Hardman about the process, we concluded that the finish must have been the result of adding the colorant to the mold at the beginning of the pour and then topping off the mold with mud lacking colorant. Whether this was done intentionally or was some screw-up during the pouring process remains unknown. Given the current appeal of the marbleized finish, it’s hard to imagine doing this on purpose. Since the reel is unmarked, it may be that a batch just didn’t turn out right and they went ahead and made (a few?) reels with black side plates. I guess we’ll never know for sure. There’s always something new with this great hobby!

[klonder]

Possibly an aftermarket mod by someone who didn't like the marblization using something like this stuff?

[RonG]

That's a cool discovery. You never know what you'll find when you open one up.

Another possibility of why the outside is not marbelized was gone over during a presentation at the San Diego convention. A, now knowledgeable, collector confessed to how he was given a marbelized fly reel when he was a novice collector. He felt the marbelized surface was not very appealing and removed it to reveal the black colored surface. There you go. You never know for sure what the history of the reel is.

[Richard Lodge]

For the record (as collectors who appreciate reels and history), I think it's Philbrook & Payne (not Paine).
Richard

[klonder]

He felt the marbelized surface was not very appealing and removed it to reveal the black colored surface.

Curious to know how this was done as I thought the marblization was throughout the plate and not just a surface treatment.
Thanks

[Ray Hencken]

If memory serves me correctly, Jim Brown told the story of meeting someone who had an all black Philbrook & Paine fly reel. The owner told Jim that he had polished out the orange color on the face plate and the back plate because he didn't care for the color.
I believe that the value of the marbelized versions is about 5 times that of the all black examples.
Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that the earliest P&P were orange and black throughout and the later ones had the orange color only on the surface. Therefore, as in this example, the orange can be polished out.

[klonder]

Thanks.
Makes me wonder though, why make the switch and add a whole other process to the build with surface marbleing?
And why surface marble the inside of the plates?
Just thinking out loud.

[reelsmith.]

John, are you going to turn those pretty plates around for my friend Bob ?

Dean.

[john elder]

Mike, no Potion 9… alcohol should have removed that if not the mineral spirits. And yes, Dean, i think we should put the clicker on the outside and Bob can just make the noise when he winds



Other than the orange at the very rim shown above, there is one single spot showing at the edge of the back plate:


I think this is consistent with the notion that the colorant was added at the beginning, then that was topped off with the dark mud to produce what we have.

[klonder]

Ok, got it

[Mike N]

Those may just be the coolest photos ever posted on Reel Talk, John.

If your and Jim Hardman’s theory is correct would you expect at least some of the marbelized reels to have a black interior?

Just a fascinating discovery.

Mike N.

[Richard Lodge]

I agree, Mike. This is a good candidate for The Reel News.
Richard

[Midway Tommy D]

Well, I have to say that the marbling on the clicker plate looks really nice but the marbling on the other plate looks like crap with those multiple big black splotches. That may be the reason why the outsides ended up being all black and the marbling is to the inside.

[reeltackle]

Well I never....... That reel is worth more open face than closed up. Very cool John!

[Jim Schottenham]

I think this article from the Winter 2012 issue of the American Fly Fisher by Jim Hardman will help explain how this reel may have been created. Pay particular attention to pages 8 & 9. The full issue link is below.

http://www.amff.org/wp-content/uploads/ ... No1web.pdf

Jim

[Mike N]

I think this article from the Winter 2012 issue of the American Fly Fisher by Jim Hardman will help explain how this reel may have been created. Pay particular attention to pages 8 & 9. The full issue link is below.

http://www.amff.org/wp-content/uploads/ ... No1web.pdf

Jim

Good stuff, Jim. Very interesting photos in that AFF article. Jim Hardman's research is so precise and well-documented.

Mike

[RonG]

This Part I article by Jim Hardman and his Part II article on these early nonmetallic materials are contained in the NEW ORCA Book "Cleaning, Restoring and Repairing Antique Fishing Reels." Get your copy today in the ORCA Book Store. See link below.

https://www.orcaonline.org/orca-store/o ... ing-reels/

[Eric J]

Thanks for linking that very interesting article Jim. I wondered if the sideplates were just cast or machined after casting but the article answered that question.
Personally, I like the black sideplates better. More elegant looking, like a tuxedo vs. a Hawaiian print shirt. It sounds like the black ones are scarcer?

[kyreels]

For the record (as collectors who appreciate reels and history), I think it's Philbrook & Payne (not Paine).
Richard

I took the liberty of changing this topic spelling to Philbrook & Payne. From the spinozarods.com site,

Francis Philbrook was a Maine gunsmith who patented his innovative raised pillar design and assigned the patent to the Leonard Rod Company in 1877. Alongside Ed Payne, the duo would manufacture reels for Leonard, striking not only because of their raised pillars but also their exquisite marbelized plates (they also made them with bi-metal and black hard rubber sides).

[reelsmith.]

This might be common knowledge, but just in case its not, their names were indeed Philbrook and Payne, yet the reels are usually stamped Philbrook & Paine.

Dean.

[kyreels]

I did not know that most reels were actually marked Philbrook & Paine, but I did see that some were. I note that Jim Hardman's article used the Philbrook & Paine. I see that some of the specialized collectors of that reel use the Payne name. I just reread the Ron Gast entry on https://luresnreels.com/philbrookpaine.html:

Philbrook & Payne reels were made for H.L. Leonard and are considered to be one of the greatest reels made by the New England States area makers. Hiram Leonard was a famous rod maker from Bangor, Maine. Francis J. Philbrook was a "Gunsmiths' Machinist and Model Maker" also in Bangor, Maine. Philbrook assigned his June 6, 1877 patented raised pillar reel to Leonard and that was the start of the Leonard reel history. The earliest models have beautiful marbleized orange and black hard rubber end plates and handle knobs and are marked "Philbrook & Paine, Makers." Philbrook was actually in partnership with Edward Payne and hence some confusion when one sees the name Paine or Payne on some of these early reels. Reels have also been found with Payne's name spelled correctly. Marbleized fly reels and salmon reels have also been found unmarked and others marked "William Mills & Son."

[john elder]

Perhaps a pic of his tombstone would best address at least how the Fam preferred it. Jim Brown and i had this discussion and came away with Paine… that’s why the spelling in my thread. However, this has long been discussed here:

viewtopic.php?t=15310

It would seem consensus is that Paine on reels was a misspelling of Payne… just seems so Bizarre to me… but maybe they paid good money for that stamp

[Steve]

Spelling often was not a major concern in them thar days. Ed's surname seems to have evolved, possibly after he asked himself, "Y M I spelling my name that way?" Maybe the "y" seemed more distinctive. The family adopted the "y."
1860 census:
1870 census:
1873 directory:
1875 directory:
1880 census:
1882 directory:
1900 census:
1928 son's marriage:
headstone:

[RonG]

Good research Steve. Looks like you hit all the docs and the tombstone to boot. I'm pretty sure that back then that most people were illiterate and the "Paine" name was close enough for them. It looks like a lot of things were written down phonetically. Also, a possibility was that Edward was a real pain towards others.

[klonder]

Still can't fathom why the back of the plates on this reel are marbled. Black mud on the face backed by marbled mud?
Or surface marble the face of the plates( removed here), back with black mud then surface marble the back of the plates??
Also, no luster to the face of the plates compared to the back.
Am I confusing or missing something ?